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Old 1st September 2016, 05:53 AM   #1
estcrh
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Default Ottoman hancer / court dagger?

Any opinions as to how old this may be. It is a very heavy dagger, 18 in. long with a 12.5 in. blade.
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Old 1st September 2016, 06:36 AM   #2
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Very impressive dagger! Congratulations!

Is it wootz?

18th century if not earlier?!

I am not sure the the name "hancer" is the correct one, and I would like to learn more about this.
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Old 1st September 2016, 09:08 AM   #3
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Ah ah, clever, I was interested by this one!
You should post the scabbard too.
It's an interesting piece done only with old and original parts.
Hilt ottoman jambiya 19th c.
Blade Ottoman so-called court dagger 18th c.
and scabbard Ottoman kinjal 19th c.
It's really a nice object, but it's a combinaison of stuffs.
You can see that the blade is too small for the scabbard.
The hilt is too big for the blade and the hilt is too big for the scabbard.
Plus a nail in the hilt to fix the blade.
The question is when this strange combinaison was done?
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Old 1st September 2016, 10:56 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
Ah ah, clever, I was interested by this one!
You should post the scabbard too.
It's an interesting piece done only with old and original parts.
Hilt ottoman jambiya 19th c.
Blade Ottoman so-called court dagger 18th c.
and scabbard Ottoman kinjal 19th c.
It's really a nice object, but it's a combinaison of stuffs.
You can see that the blade is too small for the scabbard.
The hilt is too big for the blade and the hilt is too big for the scabbard.
Plus a nail in the hilt to fix the blade.
The question is when this strange combinaison was done?
You may be right, but I don't find the hilt too big relative to the blade.

Also the checkered pattern of the koftgari is the same style both on the hilt and on the blade, and appears to be contemporary with both.

Last edited by mariusgmioc; 1st September 2016 at 12:59 PM.
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Old 1st September 2016, 03:40 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
You may be right, but I don't find the hilt too big relative to the blade.

Also the checkered pattern of the koftgari is the same style both on the hilt and on the blade, and appears to be contemporary with both.
Like that my friend
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Old 1st September 2016, 03:44 PM   #6
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and that...
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Old 1st September 2016, 06:43 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
Very impressive dagger! Congratulations!

Is it wootz?

18th century if not earlier?!

I am not sure the the name "hancer" is the correct one, and I would like to learn more about this.
I am not sure if it is wootz, I can not see any pattern but the blade edges look like they were sand papered and the middle has to much patina to see anything.

As for "hancer", this name is used by some to describe these Ottoman daggers, others use "court dagger", its just a name for categorization.
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Old 1st September 2016, 07:08 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
Ah ah, clever, I was interested by this one!
You should post the scabbard too.
It's an interesting piece done only with old and original parts.
Hilt ottoman jambiya 19th c.
Blade Ottoman so-called court dagger 18th c.
and scabbard Ottoman kinjal 19th c.
It's really a nice object, but it's a combinaison of stuffs.
You can see that the blade is too small for the scabbard.
The hilt is too big for the blade and the hilt is too big for the scabbard.
Plus a nail in the hilt to fix the blade.
The question is when this strange combinaison was done?
The hilt does look like a Jambiya hilt, the wood scabbard core fits the blade perfectly but the tip is broken off, the metal cover is a bit crude, no doubt just basic work. The melding of the blade to the hilt appears to be old, the blade and hilt are solid and if you look at images of other daggers of this type, some have the hilts riveted in the same place were this one is riveted. The hilt fits my hand perfectly and is a very good match for the length of the blade and it is very well balanced as the blade is quite heavy.

To me it appears as if someone made this into a fighting dagger at some point in the past, it probably had an ivory or stone hilt originally. The current hilt is a much better hilt for actual use as many of the hilts normally associated with these types of daggers look to be a bit small.

The seller had this listed at an extremely low "buy it now" price instead of auctioning it, probably a mistake on his part, plus his images were really bad. I have always wanted one of these blades but have not wanted to pay the high price usually asked, this was a fraction of the price compared to a pristine example.

Here is a link to some images of other examples.
https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiq...-court-dagger/
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Last edited by estcrh; 1st September 2016 at 07:34 PM.
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Old 1st September 2016, 07:34 PM   #9
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Here is a jambiya with a similar hilt.
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Old 1st September 2016, 07:46 PM   #10
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I don't know why I have the feeling it is wootz.

The scabbard is clearly a recent addition but the hilt, whether original or most probably not, is a very good match to the blade.
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Old 1st September 2016, 08:03 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
a nail in the hilt to fix the blade.
What you call a "nail" appears to me to be a rivet, hammered into place, it just does not have a decorative cover to hide it.

Here is a traditionally hilted Ottoman court dagger with a damaged hilt, this is probably what happened to the one I just bought, the hilt was damaged and replaced with a jambiya hilt. This is a rare image showing the tang within the hilt.
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Old 1st September 2016, 08:48 PM   #12
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or another one in better shape
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Old 1st September 2016, 09:44 PM   #13
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Default Hancers and yatagans

The word "hancer" is modern Turkish and just means a dagger. It is from Arabic "khanjar," and is pronounced "HON-jer." Academically, it is used to distinguish Ottoman daggers from others.

Incidentally, the well-known Ottoman yataghan (yatagan, with a soft G in Turkish) takes its name for the Turkish verb yatmak , which means to lie, or repose. This is due to the fact that the yatagan was typically worn perpendicular, or nearly perpendicular, to the waist.

Last edited by Oliver Pinchot; 2nd September 2016 at 04:12 AM.
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Old 2nd September 2016, 06:08 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot
The word "hancer" is modern Turkish and just means a dagger. It is from Arabic "khanjar," and is pronounced "HON-jer." Academically, it is used to distinguish Ottoman daggers from others.

Incidentally, the well-known Ottoman yataghan (yatagan, with a soft G in Turkish) takes its name for the Turkish verb yatmak , which means to lie, or repose. This is due to the fact that the yatagan was typically worn perpendicular, or nearly perpendicular, to the waist.
Thank you very much Oliver!
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Old 2nd September 2016, 06:14 AM   #15
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Old 2nd September 2016, 06:44 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
or another one in better shape
Nice one, is it yours?
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Old 2nd September 2016, 07:00 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by estcrh
Nice one, is it yours?
Yep! Luckily got it a couple of months ago.

I still don't know whether it is wootz or not, but I am going to try etching it soon.

PS: I tried to send you a private message but it appears your mailbox is full.

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Old 6th September 2016, 10:21 AM   #18
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What a blade this is!

The scabbard will be relatively new...accepted... The hilt however is massively worn and under scrutiny has the same criss cross pattern as the golden work on the blade as has the crossguard. The massive wear on the hilt thus gives age to the original hilt and blade. May this be a snapped sword recovered and made at the time 17th/18tyh C. A masterwork in recycling...spoils of war?
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Old 6th September 2016, 03:45 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
What a blade this is!

The scabbard will be relatively new...accepted... The hilt however is massively worn and under scrutiny has the same criss cross pattern as the golden work on the blade as has the crossguard. The massive wear on the hilt thus gives age to the original hilt and blade. May this be a snapped sword recovered and made at the time 17th/18tyh C. A masterwork in recycling...spoils of war?
I am not sure if the Ottomans had swords of this type, I have only seen this shape as a dagger. One question I do have is how far back can the large I shaped hilt type be traced back, if the blade could be 18th century was this type of hilt also used during this time period?

Last edited by estcrh; 6th September 2016 at 04:16 PM.
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Old 6th September 2016, 04:27 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by estcrh
I am not sure if the Ottomans had swords of this type, I have only seen this shape as a dagger. One question I do have is how far back can the large I shaped hilt type be traced back, if the blade could be 18th century was this type of hilt also used during this time period?
I think this form of hilt goes way back...certainly a couple of centuries. See https://www.google.com/search?q=hist...pBLfuIAWqmM%3A for other examples.. The word Khanjar from which came Hancer appeared in weapon descriptions in India / Persia in the 16th Century. (According to the Met.) The blade style is Ottoman probably made as such and not reclaimed off a broken sword however for such weapons it was common that winner takes all and after a battle weapons were recycled from those taken from enemies on the battlefield... but as I say this form was an Ottoman type..
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Old 7th September 2016, 06:26 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
I think this form of hilt goes way back...certainly a couple of centuries. See https://www.google.com/search?q=hist...pBLfuIAWqmM%3A for other examples.. The word Khanjar from which came Hancer appeared in weapon descriptions in India / Persia in the 16th Century. (According to the Met.) The blade style is Ottoman probably made as such and not reclaimed off a broken sword however for such weapons it was common that winner takes all and after a battle weapons were recycled from those taken from enemies on the battlefield... but as I say this form was an Ottoman type..
Here are a couple of Indian daggers from the Met Museum which seem to copy the Ottoman style straight dagger.
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