Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 25th May 2021, 07:33 PM   #1
urbanspaceman
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Tyneside. North-East England
Posts: 245
Default Swept hilt rapier

I have a swept hilt rapier that has four vertical grooves in the grip that once contained metal strips.
Can anybody tell me what the metal strips are called? In any language.
Attached Images
  
urbanspaceman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th May 2021, 08:19 PM   #2
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 8,560
Default

barretas longitudinales de hierro, filetes longitudinais de ferro, vertical steel bands; you can even make your own .
fernando is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2021, 02:28 AM   #3
Philip
Member
 
Philip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: California
Posts: 962
Default

The pics make me wonder if there were any strips at all in the recesses. I can't see where the ends of such strips would be secured, since there seems to be no logical points of attachment in the depth of the recesses. Personally I think that the longitudinal indentations, as is, would really help improve the user's grasp on the hilt.
Philip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2021, 07:30 AM   #4
Victrix
Member
 
Victrix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Sweden
Posts: 532
Default

I agree with Philip and have had the same thoughts. If there had once been strips in the recesses there would have been empty spaces where they had been secured under the turk’s head knots. I have a 17thC Austrian felddegen with such recesses in the grip and no signs that they ever contained strips. I believe the recesses are simply to improve grip (especially in wet or gory conditions). My observation is that grips with recesses containing strips is typical for Iberian swords, and they are typically secured with ferrules rather than turk’s head knots.
Victrix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2021, 09:03 AM   #5
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 8,560
Default

You guys are obviuosly right. I was only focused, as requested, in the name of the bars (filets) that are usually placed in those recesses.



.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by fernando; 26th May 2021 at 02:40 PM. Reason: spell
fernando is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2021, 11:21 AM   #6
urbanspaceman
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Tyneside. North-East England
Posts: 245
Default no holds barred

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando View Post
You guys are obviuosly right. I was only focused, as requested, in the name of the bars (filets) that are ususly laced in those recesses.
Thank-you Fernando; barretas was the word I was looking for.
I have seen bars secured under Turk's Head Knots, but in the case of my sword, I agree, it was simply grooved to improve grip.
I do like the look of the grips with barretas though.
Perhaps they were an optional extra, abandoned when they kept falling out during vigorous manipulation but leaving the useful grooves in place.
I believe my sword is from the first quarter of the 16thC, so a work in progress possibly.
urbanspaceman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2021, 05:41 PM   #7
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 8,560
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victrix View Post
... My observation is that grips with recesses containing strips is typical for Iberian swords, and they are typically secured with ferrules rather than turk’s head knots.
Indeed both the rapier i first showed as this one, which is no longer mine, are Iberian.


.
Attached Images
 
fernando is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2021, 07:12 PM   #8
Victrix
Member
 
Victrix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Sweden
Posts: 532
Default

And here is my 17thC Austrian felddegen, sin barretas.
Attached Images
   
Victrix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2021, 08:20 PM   #9
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 8,560
Default

The other variant; sin barretas ... y con virolas.


.
Attached Images
 
fernando is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2021, 11:45 PM   #10
urbanspaceman
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Tyneside. North-East England
Posts: 245
Default barretas

I was convinced I had seen a sword with barretas secured under the Turk's Head knot but I must be mistaken because I certainly can't find it now.
The majority I saw secured under ferrules seem to be Bilbos which I understand comes from the city name Bilbao which is Iberia right?
Anyway, if they were never fitted to my sword then it is complete which is what was disturbing me and - as Fernando suggested - I was going to make some, but was perplexed where they would be secured.
Thanks for your help Folks.
urbanspaceman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th May 2021, 10:42 AM   #11
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 8,560
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanspaceman View Post
...The majority I saw secured under ferrules seem to be Bilbos which I understand comes from the city name Bilbao which is Iberia right? ...
Bilbao is, as you know, a city in the Basque Country (Euskal Herria), a region in Northern Spain, whereas Iberia, or better, the Iberian Peninsula, comprises both nations of Portugal and Spain. If in fact the term Bilbo refers to famous edged weapons made in that region, this term is often attributed to a somehow wide range of Spanish sword styles, which is questionable.
Just for perusal, and if you allow me, i will here transcribe some considerations on this subject, written by some knowledged author (don't recall his name):

The current theories place the origin of the name to the city of Bilbao, in the modern Basque Country, in northern Spain, the capital of the actual province of Bizkaia which was a millenary iron-production center and also origin of sword and dagger hilts of fame at that time. It was a part of Spain with traditional trade contacts with Britain, so it's a very likely origin.

But fact is that the term is actually used to cover all double-shell hilt swords, and it's specially used to describe what in fact it's the Spanish cavalry Pattern sword M1728, like these:

This style was in use, with variations, since mid 17th c, and after being made into a cavalry pattern in 1728 was going to be in service until the beginning of the 19th c. As such, calling this a "bilbo", it's stretching the term a bit too much. In Spain it's called a Cavalry sword M1728, a "double shell" guard sword or a "Horse-mouth" guard sword, because of the similarity of a construction detail of the hilt with a piece of a horse bite.

"Bilbo" is an English catch-all word used to very generally refer to the Spanish "Utilitarian" cup-hilt swords, so often found all over America. They usually had a wide, _relatively_ short sturdy and well tempered blades, very practical and unadorned. The grip was more often than not wood, sometimes covered with wire.

The term comes from the Spanish Basque city of Bilbao, where a significant number of them were made and exported to the New World. In Basque that name is actually "Bilbo", although there's also a basque town by that name. I understand these swords were also sold to merchants of every european nation, including England.

The type was very popular aboard ships, where it was used on a similar role as the cutlass was among other nations. Needless to say, this sword was also used in Europe, but curiously, seem to have survived better in America. Probably because in the colonies these were better taken care of, since they were more difficult to acquire, and thus more valuable.

"Bilbo" if often misused by neophytes to refer to *any* spanish sword...


Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanspaceman View Post
... Anyway, if they were never fitted to my sword then it is complete which is what was disturbing me and - as Fernando suggested - I was going to make some, but was perplexed where they would be secured...
Pardon my bad English; when i said "you can even make your own", i was referring to making up your name for the barretas, other than the various lexicon seen out there .
fernando is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 28th May 2021, 07:23 PM   #12
urbanspaceman
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Tyneside. North-East England
Posts: 245
Default Bilbo

Thank-you yet again Ferdinand.
urbanspaceman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.