Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 28th November 2023, 11:47 PM   #1
kino
Member
 
kino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 960
Default Imported Middle Eastern Sword ( Kampilan)

Did a forumite place the winning bid on the “Imported Middle Eastern Sword”, that was auctioned off last night? Please post photos of the hilt and scabbard with dimensions, when you get a chance.
Attached Images
  
kino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th November 2023, 03:49 AM   #2
drac2k
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,165
Default

It looks like they cut down the handle and reinserted the blade; probably to make it fit into some soldier's duffle bag.
drac2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th November 2023, 09:55 AM   #3
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by drac2k View Post
It looks like they cut down the handle and reinserted the blade; probably to make it fit into some soldier's duffle bag.
Potentially... could be parallax error? Wouldn't you, if you went to the trouble of taking the hilt off, leave it of to fit in a bag or regulation sized crate.

With consideration to some I have seen, the grip section seems quite small on the type, and this one may simply be a case of the timber guard broken and pushed back over the grip.

Nice looker, mostly complete, awesome to see a most unusual scabbard type too... seems to have some age.

Last edited by Gavin Nugent; 29th November 2023 at 10:50 AM.
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th November 2023, 01:46 PM   #4
drac2k
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,165
Default

Everything that you stated is valid and probably the case, however I have seen an extensive amount on cringe worthy "barrack cuts," including Jezail Rifles and Arisaka Rifles with the barrels cut in half just under the barrel bands when one would think that it would be easier to disassemble the gun. And then there is Bannerman.
drac2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th November 2023, 06:32 PM   #5
kino
Member
 
kino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 960
Default

I hope the break wasn’t intentional so to comply with length regulations.

The crossguard is patially pushed onto the grip, which makes the grip seem short. The photo of the whole sword is a parallax view.

I think guard, grip and pommel are of Carabao horn. Uncommon in my opinion.

Last edited by kino; 29th November 2023 at 06:38 PM. Reason: Sp
kino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th November 2023, 08:04 PM   #6
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,248
Default

So many Kamps that I see for sale or auction have the holes in the crossguard but the metal staple is missing.
I wonder if they were removed on purpose because on my two examples that have the metal guard it is firmly attached.
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th November 2023, 12:06 AM   #7
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
Default

It is a quandary Rick.

Whilst not being present in the day and knowing the exact historical context, it is hard to say if they were either made with the holes by the carver for the option of the staple/s, or the staple/s were removed.

I can't see them just falling out given that the bar had a slight to acute bend on the other side, and once fitted, why would one remove this feature?
Are the holes just there potentially as an option only?
Surely it is not that the majority of those taken, everyone thought they'd just discard them.

Attached is another guardless one like those you note, form an Iranun gently curved cutlass sized Kampilan, it's guard made for double staples.
Knowing the provenance, were those used in active piracy vs status pieces, without the staples for stealth reasons in night raids? I've pondered this in so far as not having protrusions that could knock against the hull or be caught against something in the dark, effectively giving up the element of surprise.

I've another on the work bench with only holes for a single staple only... they look so very clean and pristine within that I wonder if it ever had a staple fitted, there is nil evidence of anything pressing ever against the inner surface.
Attached Images
 
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th November 2023, 01:03 AM   #8
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kino View Post
I think guard, grip and pommel are of Carabao horn. Uncommon in my opinion.
I see potential for this in the delamination of the guard... what are the tell tale signs of the rest of it being horn? Hard to tell from the photos... did you happen to get other photos?
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th November 2023, 06:42 AM   #9
kino
Member
 
kino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 960
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent View Post
I see potential for this in the delamination of the guard... what are the tell tale signs of the rest of it being horn? Hard to tell from the photos... did you happen to get other photos?
There were no other photos.
Just a gut feeling coupled with the silver pin in the photo that could be reinforcing the 2 slabs together.

Now that I’ve given it some thought the pin could have held a coin or some other embellishment.
kino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th November 2023, 11:04 AM   #10
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
Default

It took me a while to see a silver pin... it might be, but I feel it is camera angles and a hole.

The best I can do with simple editing skills to merge the images.

The left side shows nothing shiny, but you can see through the hole above the grip.
The right image, you can now only see shadows in the hole above the grip and I feel it is now lighting up the ironing board cover below the next hole.

I get the feeling this is all rich dark timber.
Attached Images
 
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th November 2023, 05:42 PM   #11
kino
Member
 
kino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 960
Default

Hopefully the new owner will weigh in and post photos.

Here’s a Kampilan with Carabao horn hilt and cross-guard.
Attached Images
 
kino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st December 2023, 05:45 AM   #12
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
Default

That's a very beautiful high quality and very clean example Kino.

What is your opinion on restoration of the hair and plugs within the pommel?
I've pondered it a lot over the years, just never ventured down that road though.
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st December 2023, 05:03 PM   #13
kino
Member
 
kino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 960
Default

I’ve done a few hair restorations on Kampilan’s that were totally bare.
I used wood glue to secure the plugs and hair into the cavity. I acquired white horse hair and dyed it with fabric dye.

DaveS (RIP), used to buy Sporran’s at Gun Shows and harvest the hair for Kampilan restorations.
kino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd December 2023, 03:44 AM   #14
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 7,124
Default

I've also done many hair restorations on kampilans, as well as "eye" repair.
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th December 2023, 01:48 PM   #15
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
Default

What part of the horse do you take the hair from? Mane I am guessing as tail is too coarse.

I've seen a decent variety of Kampilan scabbards over the years. I don't however recall one of this style. It looks thick, of hexagonal cross section, and devoid of any okir designs or pigments?

Have you see other examples of this type?
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th December 2023, 06:58 PM   #16
kino
Member
 
kino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 960
Default

I acquired a bundle of horsehair years ago, I believe it’s from the tail. Compared to what’s on some of my Kamps, it’s about the same firmness. I’ve read somewhere that goat hair were also used, where the hair is harvested from I don’t know.

I’ve seen a similar scabbard thick and hexagonal as you mentioned, here on the Forum, I couldn’t locate it. I’ll keep searching.

Here one that I worked on. I dyed the hair, It was darker whey I removed it from the dye bath, but got lighter when I rinsed it. The overhead light makes it look shiny. Might have to do-over.
Attached Images
 
kino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th December 2023, 07:47 PM   #17
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,690
Default

As the topic here is kampilans, I wanted to add my example I've had for many years, but have many questions on it and far outside my usual areas.

I am curious about the cloth still attached to it, and with a rope type fixture rather than staple as seen on some others here. The blade does not seem to have the usual profiling either, I'd really appreciate you guys opinions.
Attached Images
   
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th December 2023, 12:57 AM   #18
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,248
Default

I believe that this sword may be Iranun as I gathered from a fellow member who expressed an interest in in my example. Possibly the configuration of the point was what led him to classify it as such.
The Munsala was attached to this sword by a woven collar that was around the hilt rather than woven through the holes in the cross guard as your example shows.
I also have a Parang Nabur that has a Munsala attached to it in the same manner.
Both cloths show extreme age.
Attached Images
  

Last edited by Rick; 6th December 2023 at 02:53 AM.
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th December 2023, 02:01 AM   #19
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,690
Default

What exactly is a munsala?
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th December 2023, 03:55 AM   #20
kino
Member
 
kino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 960
Default

Jim, regarding you Kampilan blade, I have seen quite a few Kampilan blade profile similar to yours, although not uncommon they’re not as prolific as the ones with the spikes.

Munsala - some say it’s a fetish cloth, some, a talisman blessed by an Imam, others say it is used to secure your hand to the hilt by tying around.

Rick, going back to you entry regarding missing staples,
They must have been an option like Gavin questioned. I also have seen where there were once staple guard on a crosspiece and was removed. No telling when it was removed.

There’s no evidence on this one having an iron staple guard. The set of holes had one had a cord loop thru them.
Name:  IMG_2023-12-05-181846.jpeg
Views: 1072
Size:  112.6 KB

The two below doesn’t have holes for the staple guards
Name:  IMG_2023-12-05-181816.jpeg
Views: 1012
Size:  128.8 KB
kino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th December 2023, 04:30 AM   #21
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,248
Default

I believe it serves the same purpose as a sword knot Jim. I expect that an anting anting could be incorporated in one.
A search here for Munsala will bring up some hits.

I see we crossed posts Kino; obviously from the photographic evidence the 'staples' were optional, but why drill holes in the cross guard when one could more easily make a tight loop around the handle to attach the munsala?

Last edited by Rick; 6th December 2023 at 04:43 AM.
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th December 2023, 06:27 AM   #22
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,248
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by kino View Post
Rick, going back to your entry regarding missing staples,
They must have been an option like Gavin questioned. I also have seen where there were once staple guard on a crosspiece and was removed. No telling when it was removed.

There’s no evidence on this one having an iron staple guard. The set of holes had one had a cord loop thru them.
Attachment 232530

The two below doesn’t have holes for the staple guards
Attachment 232531
Hi Kino
Okay, Obviously the swords you showed were never drilled which I guess would mean that the person who commissioned them did not want them drilled for staple/s; I get that part. This brings up the question; why are the holes drilled in the guard of Jim's example? Certainly not just to hold the Munsala in place. Could Jim's sword have been passed down from a family member, or was it taken in combat with another tribe?
I can't see the point in drilling staple holes in a guard if it wasn't asked for by the fellow who commissioned the weapon.

By the way, Jim how many holes are drilled in your guard 2 3 or 4?
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th December 2023, 10:30 AM   #23
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
Default

Robust discussion!

Following Kino's lead, I went off looking for the similar scabbard that has me intrigued. I could not locate one similar within the pages.

The only other ones I recall, one partial hexagonal in the Penn Museum, another in my collection, it though in not as thick as this one looks to be at the base, nor does it have what looks to be a carved protrusion at the end, another in the entourage of Datu Piang, with the additional carry handle,

Some of these others seen that are close but not quite close enough to my eye, are below. Happy to take advice on the nature of these hexagonal types, flaring at the base or not.

I did see this one as a side note, one of Ron's with staple and rope or remains of a munsala.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...pilan+scabbard

And another with quite narrow spacing of the holes, rope and munsala only.
https://www.britishmuseum.org/collec...914-Loan01-583
Attached Images
  

Last edited by Gavin Nugent; 6th December 2023 at 10:42 AM.
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th December 2023, 07:19 PM   #24
kino
Member
 
kino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 960
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
but why drill holes in the cross guard when one could more easily make a tight loop around the handle to attach the munsala?
I guess we’ll never know. I’ve seen an example where the Munsala was tied around the handle, not by a cord looped thru the bare holes.

Regarding the missing staple guard, here’s one that was clearly removed by cutting, only the nubs remain.
Attached Images
  
kino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st December 2023, 04:57 AM   #25
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
Default

I got looking at this again today Kino.

I enlarged the photo. Some interesting features that align with your thoughts, not silver but interesting.
Attached Images
 
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd December 2023, 12:07 AM   #26
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,290
Default

I guess the kampy in question is heavily damaged, a big sector of the grip is missing and the tang maybe shortened. Just my opinion.

Here is another one without a staple guard I just acquired, I still haven't received it, so here is the auction picture and an enlargement of the handle.
Attached Images
  
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd December 2023, 05:07 AM   #27
SanibelSwassa
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Sanibel Florida
Posts: 104
Default Two Kampilan that came from DaveS collection

The first 2 came from DaveS collection and had the hair restored IMHO. The questions surrounding staples are very interesting and I am posting a pic of a complete exquisite example that was shared with me when I first started collecting… Gavin was this yours?? There were bells attached to this one and a unique carved scabbard.
Attached Images
      
SanibelSwassa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd December 2023, 07:19 AM   #28
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SanibelSwassa View Post
The first 2 came from DaveS collection and had the hair restored IMHO. The questions surrounding staples are very interesting and I am posting a pic of a complete exquisite example that was shared with me when I first started collecting… Gavin was this yours?? There were bells attached to this one and a unique carved scabbard.
Nice Kampilan SanibelSwassa. Who was/is DavidS?

An interesting question arises as I type my response. Are Kampilan like fish?
1 is a Kampilan, is 2, 3, 4 or more, also Kampilan.

The one you ask of remains in my collection.
It is one of two that I retain, seen on the grey couch.
All others have been sold over the years, including another that was fully loaded which I admired a lot.
Attached Images
  
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd December 2023, 02:09 PM   #29
SanibelSwassa
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Sanibel Florida
Posts: 104
Default

Gavin,

I should probably apologize for shorting his name… David Schmidt and his wife were/are prolific blade collectors and David was a longtime forum member. I didn’t get to know him, but am grateful for the time and passion he put into his collection. I do have several pieces that once belonged to David. Like several other longtime collectors here on the forum, David contributed to the preservation of both the art and culture embedded in these pieces of history.

From what I have been able to glean from the forum, David was willing to share thoughts, theories and insight along with significant resources to ensure a continued expansion in understanding and honoring the legacy that each piece embodies.

I’m personally thankful for those like Shelley M, Gavin, Chris C, and Erik F that have been willing to not only pass on fabulous pieces to me, but more importantly share their expertise, wisdom and knowledge with me. IMHO those of you that have shared here are incredible.

With that said Merry Christmas and here are a couple more “Kampili”… nod to Gavin.

Also here is a pretty good piece with situations for those interested. I hope the link works.
https://philippinestudies.uk/mapping/tours/show/16
Attached Images
      
SanibelSwassa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd December 2023, 02:20 PM   #30
SanibelSwassa
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Sanibel Florida
Posts: 104
Default

Also I think we may have an answer as to the wholes in the guard section from the last pictures I posted of more intact Kampilan. It appears that there were sometimes other talismanic elements included in the form. These can be seen as discs or possibly colored stone or metal piercings to the hilt guard. From the limited pictures available I can’t tell if these were just nailed in or if they actually went all the through, but it’s a possible explanation.
Attached Images
   
SanibelSwassa is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:48 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.