Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Keris Warung Kopi

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 24th November 2012, 05:48 AM   #1
Ganja Iras
Member
 
Ganja Iras's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 57
Default buginesse

dear all ,

here i presenting my keris pic's for comment
all of the them are in old sheath with silver pendhok.
thank you

Ganja Iras
Attached Images
   
Ganja Iras is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th November 2012, 05:31 PM   #2
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 6,323
Default

Some closer and/or larger images might be helpful for a better assessment. From what i can see i am liking the second from the left the best...
David is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 25th November 2012, 05:15 AM   #3
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 6,760
Default

Now are all these court keris? What status are they?
Battara is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 25th November 2012, 10:22 AM   #4
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,570
Default

Hello Ganja Iras,
Very nice pieces, congratulations! More detailed pictures will be welcome indeed.
It seems to me that the pendoks and passio sumange/ toli-toli with rosette are recently made in a style attributed to Sumbawa, please confirm.
Best regards

Last edited by Jean; 25th November 2012 at 08:42 PM.
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th November 2012, 04:36 PM   #5
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 6,323
Default

I wouldn't mind hearing more thoughts on the cultural/status significance of the "toli-toli". I believe we had a brief discussion on these once before.
David is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 25th November 2012, 09:23 PM   #6
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,808
Default

I find this recent profusion of toli-toli very interesting.

By about age 30 I had accumulated over 3000 keris. These were not all beautiful, perfect complete keris, but keris in every stage of disrepair and damage and I worked on a lot of them and returned them to something approximating fairly acceptable keris. By the time I was about 40 I'd reduced that 3000+ to no more than 40 pretty decent keris that were all original and in good condition, and this was the foundation for my present collection. During my thirties I put a lot of keris through auctions, both in Australia and in the UK --- this was long before ebay had ever been thought of.

Since the early 1970's I have been buying keris in Indonesia and from other countries --- UK, USA, Europe. My present personal collection is somewhere in the neighbourhood of 300 keris.

Now, the reason I find the present profusion of toli-toli to be so interesting is that I have only ever owned two keris with toli-toli, and in both cases those toli-toli were rather simple red cords, not beautiful examples of the jewellers art.

It is rather pleasing to see this revival of the production of toli-toli that originally were probably owned by only a handful of nobles, this gives most of us the opportunity to add exquisite pieces to our collections, pieces that 50 years ago we could never even have dreamed of possessing.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th November 2012, 11:03 PM   #7
asomotif
Member
 
asomotif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 2,148
Default

I would love to see some close up pictures of the blades and handles.

As for the toli toli. These look like well made examples, but they indeed appear to be recently additions. I wonder how the original scabbards where.

Sometimes the bottom of these scabbard are very well made with wooden buntut. Now the old original wooden buntut are simply removed to add a silver example that is not original.
Sure, it is silver and looks luxurious, but it is a later addition and out of its context. I am not in favour of this.
asomotif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th November 2012, 11:28 PM   #8
Gustav
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 991
Default

The first blade from left could be a shortened blade from Lombok, the third blade looks like a Malay Peninsula blade. The second sheath looks slightly strange, with the very long Batang (Gandar) for a not so long Sapukala. Also the Sampir (Gambar) seems to be rather low; could the upper part of it be reshaped?
Gustav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th November 2012, 11:35 PM   #9
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,808
Default

I am inclined to agree that the context of any "improvement" to an older keris is something that does need consideration.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th November 2012, 02:36 AM   #10
ferrylaki
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 285
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustav
The first blade from left could be a shortened blade from Lombok, the third blade looks like a Malay Peninsula blade. The second sheath looks slightly strange, with the very long Batang (Gandar) for a not so long Sapukala. Also the Sampir (Gambar) seems to be rather low; could the upper part of it be reshaped?
I must agree to say some of these not bugis.
quite an observaion Gustav.
ferrylaki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th November 2012, 09:22 AM   #11
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,570
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
I wouldn't mind hearing more thoughts on the cultural/status significance of the "toli-toli". I believe we had a brief discussion on these once before.
Hello David,
You can find a short topic regarding the significance of the passio sumange (Sulawesi term) on page 153 of the book "Senjata Pusaka Bugis" but I am unable to translate it clearly so may be an Indonesian member can do it for us...
Best regards
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th November 2012, 09:28 AM   #12
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,570
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustav
The first blade from left could be a shortened blade from Lombok, the third blade looks like a Malay Peninsula blade. The second sheath looks slightly strange, with the very long Batang (Gandar) for a not so long Sapukala. Also the Sampir (Gambar) seems to be rather low; could the upper part of it be reshaped?
It would be interesting to know from where Ganja Iras got these pieces, from various places or a single source?
Best regards

Last edited by Jean; 26th November 2012 at 10:00 AM.
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th November 2012, 01:31 PM   #13
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 6,323
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean
It would be interesting to know from where Ganja Iras got these pieces, from various places or a single source?
Best regards
That's a good question. To my eye the silver work appears very similar (though somewhat stylistically different) as is all these perhaps came out of the same shop.
David is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 26th November 2012, 08:34 PM   #14
asomotif
Member
 
asomotif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 2,148
Default

With the risk of being far too blunt...
Could it be that this thread belongs more or less in the swap section ?
asomotif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th November 2012, 10:20 PM   #15
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 6,323
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by asomotif
With the risk of being far too blunt...
Could it be that this thread belongs more or less in the swap section ?
Well. i don't see any indication that Ganja Iras is selling these keris. Of course he also has not returned to answer any of the questions asked these pieces or post any detailed images as requested more than once. You still out there Ganja???
David is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 28th November 2012, 06:13 PM   #16
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,570
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
I wouldn't mind hearing more thoughts on the cultural/status significance of the "toli-toli". I believe we had a brief discussion on these once before.
Hello David,
One distinguished forum member was kind enough to make a summarized translation of the topic in the book "Senjata Pusaka Bugis" as follows:

"The passsio sumange (or toli-toli) functions to bring together the "energy" of humanity and iron (in the sense of weaponry?) so that they can live together in harmony.
Apart from being an accessory, the passio sumange functions as a safeguard. In past times if you wanted to meet with the Raja the kris had to be tight in the scabbard and tightly tied with the passio sumange. This was done to ensure that the kris did not suddenly come out in front of the Raja. If that happened, the person with the kris would be immediately stabbed because it was considered that he intended to do something that was not good for the safety of the Raja.
Apart from that, according to Bissu Matowa Saidi, if considered from the mystic pont of view, the pasio sumange is also able to give a vibration to the wearer that something will happen to threaten him or his family."

Thanks to the contributor and regards.
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th November 2012, 08:29 AM   #17
Ganja Iras
Member
 
Ganja Iras's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 57
Default some more pic's

dear all..here i post some closer pic's of the blades ,warangka and also (new made ) silver pendhok and toli toli.
thanks to you guys

ganja iras
Attached Images
            
Ganja Iras is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st December 2012, 03:42 AM   #18
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 6,760
Default

Nice work.

The top one that you posted today seems to perhaps have some damage covered up by some later silver chasing work at the bottom of the scabbard next to the buntut.
Battara is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd December 2012, 09:29 AM   #19
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,570
Default

The silver sheets used for making the pendoks are thin, the warangkas look old but the first one is disproportionately long for the blade so probably not originally matching with it.
Ganja Iras did not tell us yet from where or whom did he got these pieces, this would be an interesting information for us I think. I have 2 similar pieces bought in Lombok which I already showed in this forum.
Regards
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd December 2012, 03:02 PM   #20
Ganja Iras
Member
 
Ganja Iras's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 57
Default Hi

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean
The silver sheets used for making the pendoks are thin, the warangkas look old but the first one is disproportionately long for the blade so probably not originally matching with it.
Ganja Iras did not tell us yet from where or whom did he got these pieces, this would be an interesting information for us I think. I have 2 similar pieces bought in Lombok which I already showed in this forum.
Regards
hallo Jean ,

I really want to give you more info about the kerisses ,but my english not so good .
I obtain all of them from keris seller in sumbawa island ,and he told me that he found it in bima .
All off the blade and warangka / sheaths are old ,and the silver pendhok toli toli pendhokok (mendhak ) are newly made in lombok : somewhere arround mataram .
I hope you'll satisfied with my little info.
Thanks and regards ,

Ganja iras
Ganja Iras is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd December 2012, 08:56 PM   #21
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 6,760
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean
The silver sheets used for making the pendoks are thin
Yes that makes sense since repousse needs thin sheets to do the work.
Battara is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd December 2012, 08:33 AM   #22
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,570
Default

Hello Ganja Iras,
Thank you very much for the useful information and it confirms my impression that this type of Bugis kris originates from Sumbawa and they are refurbished and embellished in Lombok.
And your English is good enough to be perfectly understood, don't be shy!
Best regards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganja Iras
hallo Jean ,

I really want to give you more info about the kerisses ,but my english not so good .
I obtain all of them from keris seller in sumbawa island ,and he told me that he found it in bima .
All off the blade and warangka / sheaths are old ,and the silver pendhok toli toli pendhokok (mendhak ) are newly made in lombok : somewhere arround mataram .
I hope you'll satisfied with my little info.
Thanks and regards ,

Ganja iras
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.