Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 8th February 2023, 05:16 PM   #31
milandro
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 248
Thumbs up

Cheers Kai,

I realise that the topic of staining is controversial .

Since I have never seen a Kris blade (Moro or otherwise) which has been stained with FeCl, I took the chance offered in this thread to see how one would have looked like.

Since Xasterix announced the staining (staining which was " to come" at that time) of this blade in FeCl and the intention to post pictures as a follow up : ".... I'll be doing an FeCl etch in the near future- I'll update this thread by then with clear and close-up pics ..."

I was wondering if this had happened and if we could partake of the results.

I have seen several pictures of blades stained in vinegar and, for comparison, would be very educative and informative for all to see the difference between the two (of course , Ideally one would have to see it on the same blade but also two similar one would be the next best thing)

Last edited by milandro; 9th February 2023 at 08:31 AM. Reason: syntax
milandro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th February 2023, 10:32 PM   #32
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,068
Default

Yes, I may be the culprit in dissuading Ray to move forward...

We had some Moro blades treated with ferric chloride here in the forum (if not findable with a search, possibly in the defunct UBB forum). I'm going to PM you examples that I can't post here, Milandro.

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th February 2023, 11:33 PM   #33
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,068
Post

Hello David,

Apologies for not responding earlier!

Quote:
Well Kai, i think you really have to differentiate between etching and staining because they are not the same thing at all.
In most cases of intentionally treating pattern-welded pieces, both is happening during a single process like two sides of the same coin.

Pretty much all stains contain an acid which etches the surface and some resulting oxidation products result in discoloration of the bare metal.


Quote:
Actually i don't think all that much etching takes place during the staining process with warangan anyway. Most of the etching with keris takes place during the pre-staining "cleaning" processes when either fruit acids or coconut water are used to remove rust and bring the blade to "whitened" condition.
Yes, the whitening step is responsible for most of the erosion, especially with the rub-in method. (The soaking method tends to remove more metal.)

However, the lime juice in the warangan mix provides organic acids resulting in an oxidation process while the arsenic reacts resulting in the dark color. Thus, we still have both processes working hand in hand (since the lime juice is necessary to get a correct stain).


Quote:
I was not arguing that there is not nickel in the steel of this archaic Moro blade. But by my understanding the patterns created here are not done by the same process that is used to create keris with pamor.
Pamor can result from any kind of laminations, even if the contrast happens to be low. Also in Indonesian keris, the use of metal from different ores/treatments results in obvious (if often more subdued) laminations, especially with many old pieces. If the ores don't have increased nickel content, it may just as well be a higher phosphorus content or other trace element(s) in the alloy affecting their specific reaction characteristics.


Quote:
There is not pamor used in this archaic blade as far as i know.
This example clearly exhibits typical pamor (easily comparable due to the smooth surface) of the same twisted type as seen on keris Jawa (or Lombok/Bali). Based on the thin pamor layers with very light color, I'm pretty confident that a XRF analysis will show an elevated percentage of nickel in this blade, indeed.


Quote:
There may very well be some nickel content in some of the iron used though. But frankly i don't know. I am curious to know how you know this though. Can you cite a source for this information?
If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

At this stage, I don't have really started obtaining detailed measurements yet (quite tricky due to the small exposed surfaces, especially with more complex pattern-welded blades).

Aside from originating from the same roots, also all observed features resulting from blade forging and quenching as well as the very comparable reaction of pamor layers to etchant/stains, supports the hypothesis that at least the basic keris/kris smithing methods seem to be very similar all across the archipelago.

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th February 2023, 01:57 AM   #34
Rick
Member
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,097
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kai View Post
Yes, I may be the culprit in dissuading Ray to move forward...

We had some Moro blades treated with ferric chloride here in the forum (if not findable with a search, possibly in the defunct UBB forum). I'm going to PM you examples that I can't post here, Milandro.

Regards,
Kai
Here's one Kai.
Attached Images
 
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th February 2023, 10:10 AM   #35
xasterix
Member
 
xasterix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 501
Default

Hullo Milandro! Sorry it took me a while to get back. I didn't FeCl the kris anymore. As chance would have it, I was able to contact a descendant-relative of the original Maguindanaon owner, and upon realizing the value of that pusaka, they expressed that they would like to acquire it in memory of their ancestral lineage. As much as I want to keep it (who won't want to keep a twistcore, right), out of goodwill I let them acquire it from me. That's one less twistcore for me, but at least a family reclaimed its pusaka.

Anyhow- I've been experimenting a bit, and my current preference is a mix-
1. Mirror polish then FeCL, stabilize
2. I immerse a white vinegar-filled tube with old brass for around 2 hours
3. I dip the blade for around 30 mins (as a second etch), stabilize

So far I'm pleased with the results. It doesn't show up that clearly in my pics, but there's a golden tone to the etch in certain places (due to the brass residue). Here's some pieces I did that progression with.
Attached Images
  
xasterix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th February 2023, 01:50 PM   #36
milandro
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 248
Default

Hello Xasterix,

thank you very much for getting back to this thread with such relevant information and very well done for returning the acquired kris to the family of the original owner. You are a gentleman.

Anyway.

Thanks for sharing your experience and your personal recipe.

I am considering all options for my one Moro blade (which I did publish elsewhere in another thread but I can add a picture here for completeness of the discussion).

I don't think it has a twist core or any other major feature , yet, I think that giving it the chance to show the hidden secrets (so to speak) may be a nice touch.

I am going to consult a local master bladesmith , hoping that he can provide some insights from a " de visu" exam of the blade.
Attached Images
 
milandro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th February 2023, 02:44 PM   #37
xasterix
Member
 
xasterix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 501
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by milandro View Post
Hello Xasterix,

thank you very much for getting back to this thread with such relevant information and very well done for returning the acquired kris to the family of the original owner. You are a gentleman.

Anyway.

Thanks for sharing your experience and your personal recipe.

I am considering all options for my one Moro blade (which I did publish elsewhere in another thread but I can add a picture here for completeness of the discussion).

I don't think it has a twist core or any other major feature , yet, I think that giving it the chance to show the hidden secrets (so to speak) may be a nice touch.

I am going to consult a local master bladesmith , hoping that he can provide some insights from a " de visu" exam of the blade.
Thanks for the kind words Milandro! I'm betting that your kris is laminated, and that the hardening at the edges will be marked neatly once it's etched (as to how dark, light, or contrasted, that'll depend on your etch media and strength). Good luck, and let us know how it goes!
xasterix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th February 2023, 08:05 PM   #38
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 7,781
Default

Hello Xas,

Be careful with your blades, I see brown corrosion by your kris, this is what Kai mentioned before about etching with FeCl.

Regards,
Detlef
Attached Images
 
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th February 2023, 08:44 PM   #39
kino
Member
 
kino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 864
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by xasterix View Post
As chance would have it, I was able to contact a descendant-relative of the original Maguindanaon owner, and upon realizing the value of that pusaka, they expressed that they would like to acquire it in memory of their ancestral lineage. As much as I want to keep it (who won't want to keep a twistcore, right), out of goodwill I let them acquire it from me. That's one less twistcore for me, but at least a family reclaimed its pusaka.

2. I immerse a white vinegar-filled tube with old brass for around 2 hours
Itís honorable of you to have the Maguindanaon family have their Pusaka back.

Whatís the purpose of adding the brass to the vinegar?
kino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th February 2023, 01:12 PM   #40
xasterix
Member
 
xasterix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 501
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen View Post
Hello Xas,

Be careful with your blades, I see brown corrosion by your kris, this is what Kai mentioned before about etching with FeCl.

Regards,
Detlef
Hullo Detlef! Thanks for the heads-up- but that's no corrosion don't worry- it's the "effect" of etching with white vinegar + brass residue =) it gives a different tinge to the etch which I fancy (but I understand it's not for everyone's aesthetic). Here's some more pics.
Attached Images
  
xasterix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th February 2023, 01:15 PM   #41
xasterix
Member
 
xasterix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 501
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kino View Post
Itís honorable of you to have the Maguindanaon family have their Pusaka back.

Whatís the purpose of adding the brass to the vinegar?
Thanks sir Albert =) oh that's just an experimental mixture of mine to add some random brass-ish color to the etch. I noticed that brass, when soaked on white vinegar, leaves residue. It's etched unto any dunked blade afterwards. It's easy to lighten up or remove with some fine steel wool.
xasterix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th February 2023, 01:16 PM   #42
xasterix
Member
 
xasterix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 501
Default

It also affects the color of other metals, including silver I think- notice how the asang-asang became gold-ish, same color as the etched residues on the blade.
xasterix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th February 2023, 01:39 PM   #43
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,068
Default

Hello Ray,

Quote:
It also affects the color of other metals, including silver I think- notice how the asang-asang became gold-ish, same color as the etched residues on the blade.
It looks like you're essentially electroplating the copper from the dissolved brass onto the asang-asang.

On the blade, your results still do look suspicious to me. When I've seen effects from "contaminating" metals/alloys, the "deposit" seemed to be much more evenly distributed - at least if the blade was regularly moved in the etching solution to avoid erratic results.

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th February 2023, 03:36 PM   #44
xasterix
Member
 
xasterix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 501
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kai View Post
Hello Ray,


It looks like you're essentially electroplating the copper from the dissolved brass onto the asang-asang.

On the blade, your results still do look suspicious to me. When I've seen effects from "contaminating" metals/alloys, the "deposit" seemed to be much more evenly distributed - at least if the blade was regularly moved in the etching solution to avoid erratic results.

Regards,
Kai
Thanks very much for providing me with the formal term!!! The problem was that I did not regular move the blade in the mix, hence the erratic distribution.
xasterix is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:23 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.