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Old 13th May 2021, 07:52 PM   #1
gp
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Default what is this ?

again looking for your knowledge on origin and age...
as I can only guess or speculate
only description was Antique Knife hande made with Silver
I have no more details as it hasn't arrived yet..

So please your thoughts , thank you very much !
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Old 13th May 2021, 08:55 PM   #2
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IMHO old Uzbek pchak
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Old 13th May 2021, 09:21 PM   #3
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IMHO old Uzbek pchak
I agree, but with one caveat. If the metal fittings are made of silver, then the item is older and comes from the Emirate of Bukhara. If the fittings are made of an alloy of lead and tin, then it is from Soviet Uzbekistan.
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Old 13th May 2021, 10:57 PM   #4
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Serge, no "if"

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...Knife hande made with Silver...
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Old 13th May 2021, 11:03 PM   #5
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However, I want to wait a bit
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I have no more details as it hasn't arrived yet..
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Old 18th May 2021, 07:16 PM   #6
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so it arrived today, cleaned some dirt and had a good look.
This horn handle is not as dark as the Ottoman horn you see in the Balkans or what you call present day Turkey; that looks close to more black.
This horn is more darkis brown when you look close at it,
As the seller's description was correct: the ferrule and star or flowerlike ornaments on the handle / grip are silver.
The 2 pieces of the handle / grip have a red metal in between them, ending into the ferrule: copper/bronze?

So hope this helps you forum member with your determination on its age ...
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Old 18th May 2021, 08:54 PM   #7
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I will cautiously assume - the first third of the 20th century.
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Old 18th May 2021, 10:01 PM   #8
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I will cautiously assume - the first third of the 20th century.
Thank you very much!
So that would place it around the transition of the Emirate / Buxoro amirligi to the Bukharan PSR or perhaps a decade later the Uzbek SSR.
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Old 18th May 2021, 11:58 PM   #9
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This knife shape and style of decoration took place throughout the 20th century. But silver in the USSR was used in accordance with strict rules - the state assay mark was required. Therefore, I assume that the knife was made before such rules took effect in the Uzbek SSR.
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Old 19th May 2021, 12:33 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ren Ren View Post
This knife shape and style of decoration took place throughout the 20th century. But silver in the USSR was used in accordance with strict rules - the state assay mark was required. Therefore, I assume that the knife was made before such rules took effect in the Uzbek SSR.
I agree, but with one caveat
specifically this shape of the blade with a raised tip has its own name: Kayiki pchak (not sure if the transliteration is correct)
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Old 19th May 2021, 03:08 PM   #11
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Thank you very much!
So that would place it around the transition of the Emirate / Buxoro amirligi to the Bukharan PSR or perhaps a decade later the Uzbek SSR.
An excellent knife for the late 19th century. Here is a similar one from the collection of the Danish ethnographer Ole Olufsen from the expedition to Bukhara in the 1890s
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Old 19th May 2021, 08:00 PM   #12
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thank you gents! very interesting info which made me more than curious....
I found also mentioning that this type of pchak was used by not only Uzbeks but also Uigurs.
An interesting site with very very beautiful pchaks and also containing very useful info :
https://biserochek.ru/en/krasota/vid...-pchakov-nozh/
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Old 19th May 2021, 09:35 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gp View Post
thank you gents! very interesting info which made me more than curious....
I found also mentioning that this type of pchak was used by not only Uzbeks but also Uigurs.
An interesting site with very very beautiful pchaks and also containing very useful info :
https://biserochek.ru/en/krasota/vid...-pchakov-nozh/
The link contains modern knives that have nothing to do with the samples of knives of the late 19th - early 20th century...
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Old 19th May 2021, 10:31 PM   #14
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The link contains modern knives that have nothing to do with the samples of knives of the late 19th - early 20th century...
Well, I think that some of the modern knives are definitely inspired by the antique ones. Especially if you scroll down the page you may see some modern knives very similar to the old ones.

Also the site provides some interesting information about the anatomy and decoration of the knives.
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Old 19th May 2021, 11:46 PM   #15
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Unfortunately, the tradition of making universal belt knives is almost lost. Today more than 90% of knives are kitchen and table models.
Until recently, the tradition was alive in East Turkestan, but the Chinese authorities are killing it before our very eyes.
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Old 20th May 2021, 09:46 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mahratt View Post
The link contains modern knives that have nothing to do with the samples of knives of the late 19th - early 20th century...

it is actually very unfortunately the fate of many traditions and craftsmanship...

the reason why I liked the link is the fact it gave me some information as I was total ignorant of ( the beauty of) cold weapons from that region, although I have quite some knowledge on the region's history and architectural masterpieces.
And looking at the design of tiles of some historic building, one can recognize that quality has also been transferred into some of the ornaments of the cold weapons.

Last edited by gp; 20th May 2021 at 05:10 PM.
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Old 28th May 2021, 08:46 AM   #17
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Unfortunately, the tradition of making universal belt knives is almost lost. Today more than 90% of knives are kitchen and table models.
Until recently, the tradition was alive in East Turkestan, but the Chinese authorities are killing it before our very eyes.
yeah uyghurs untill recently made some good belt knives.. theres even a youtube video of a knife maker making the iron tang and fire welding it to the highcarbon blade. m as was tradition before russian steel became more common in the late 19th century.. only bichaks from the uyghurs have those steel blades with the blade scarfed into it. uzbek too.. i got ess the chinese authorities killed sword making first as uyghurs made nice shamshir up untill the 1950s.. there was article i found of a kazakh smith still able to make shamshir in the 1990s living among the uyghurs.. in uzbekistan and tajikistan where the same knives are made the process is much less traditional.. even 60 years ago
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Old 19th June 2021, 09:38 PM   #18
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in the pchak foto placed by mahratt, I notices a stamp or etching which portrays a leaf.

This leaf I have seen before as :

- a stamp on some Ottoman bichaqs and kamas (approx. pre 1870)
- a piece of Turkish art : a dried leaf of exact the same type on which a Mevlana Derwish has been painted being in the middle of performing a Zikr.

Never paid that much attention to it, but as this is the 3rd time I see this leaf, would you know its significance ?

FYI: I couldn't find anything in the Sufi literature ...
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