Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 31st August 2022, 08:59 PM   #1
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 720
Default Large old ''bowie'' scout knife ?

Hello dear members,

I bought this massive knife,
44cm/17,3 inches long
Not expensiv it seems a little old and I liked the
Massive shape and the horn hilt.
There is a saw on the back of the blade.

-A kind of old survival-scout knife ?

-A composite large knife ?

made with a shortened sword blade : the tip has a strange shape and the back saw goes nearly to the tip.

Have you ever seen this kind of tip on old ''scout'' knives ?
I haven't received it so I can't post other pictures for the moment ( and haven't seen if there is a stamp on the blade...)
Attached Images
    
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd September 2022, 04:07 AM   #2
M ELEY
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NC, U.S.A.
Posts: 1,982
Default

I like this knife! It does appear to be a composite, but that isn't always a bad thing. This piece looks like it all dates to approximately the same period. Could be either a cut-down sword or large knife. I suspect the latter based on the saw-type. Most saw/pioneer/hunting swords with saw backs have big 'teeth'. These are smaller, like those find on diving knives, etc. If only the knife could talk! It would be easy to guess origins (a Civil War Confederate side knife! A blacksmith-made gambler's boot knife! An Army scout's weapon/tool), but without provenance, it will remain a mystery. I love the rounded old brass pommel, possibly from a sword. The crossguard/ferrel looks sword-ish, but again, take a look at some of the old bowies, diver knives, etc and you might not be so sure!
M ELEY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd September 2022, 07:31 AM   #3
Radboud
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 119
Default

Can we see the spine of the blade? It almost looks like a re-purposed file with those fine serrations.
Radboud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd September 2022, 04:23 PM   #4
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 720
Default

Thank you for your messages ! 🙂

The blade maybe made with an old file ?
It's possible, I will see and post pictures when I get it ...
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd September 2022, 06:36 PM   #5
Interested Party
Member
 
Interested Party's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Eastern Sierra
Posts: 245
Default

I would agree with the serrations being an old file or made to be a file. I made one knife and cut half the spine into a file. I was not happy with the functionality.

The top of the sheath looks relatively new, and machine sewn. I would not be surprised if there was a liner of plastic helping it hold its shape similar to some 1970s Schrade sheaths.
Interested Party is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th September 2022, 06:32 PM   #6
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 720
Default

Hello,
I finally received it,
It came with a small 30cm knife ( a kind of gaucho knife or german origin )
So :
For me it must be a kind of old pioneer dagger,
Scabbard and dagger are old/ really older than the ''baldric'' who seems more recent ( 60-80's )

I prefer the dagger without it !
The scabbard looks like some old german hunting daggers.
.
Interesting on scabbard and guard:
an old fixation system.
Still works good...

On the back of the blade there is more a large teeth file rather than a saw as de said.
I wonder when they will use it ??
The blade is well made ( massive with sharp ends) and I don't think they just forge it with an old file an leave it like that...
Attached Images
      
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th September 2022, 06:38 PM   #7
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 720
Default

Another pics...
Withthe interesting kind of ''locket'' system

Kind regards
Attached Images
    
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th September 2022, 06:57 PM   #8
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 720
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by francantolin View Post
Hello,
I finally received it,
It came with a small 30cm knife ( a kind of gaucho knife or german origin )
So :
For me it must be a kind of old pioneer dagger,
Scabbard and dagger are old/ really older than the ''baldric'' who seems more recent ( 60-80's )

I prefer the dagger without it !
The scabbard looks like some old german hunting daggers.
.
Interesting on scabbard and guard:
an old fixation system.
Still works good...

On the back of the blade there is more a large teeth file rather than a saw as de said.
I wonder when they will use it ??
The blade is well made ( massive with sharp ends) and I don't think they just forge it with an old file an leave it like that...
For the utility of the file ,
Just thought now:

for a useful survival knife: help prisonners / file through prison bars
( sure dynamite or keys are be more efficient ! )
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th September 2022, 09:18 PM   #9
colin henshaw
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,425
Default

I'm not completely certain, but I believe this type of knife was made in India in the 19th century for the colonial market.
colin henshaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th September 2022, 10:36 PM   #10
M ELEY
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NC, U.S.A.
Posts: 1,982
Default

Wow! This is a really interesting piece! Now that we see details, definitely not a file! The saw edge could have been to cut through barbed wire? The saw back looks more of a tool that a traditional hunting trousse type to skin game-

Colin, do you have any pics of those Indian side weapons? I'd love to see one for reference. Always learning...
M ELEY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th September 2022, 09:22 AM   #11
colin henshaw
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,425
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by M ELEY View Post

Colin, do you have any pics of those Indian side weapons? I'd love to see one for reference. Always learning...
Mark, here are some similar examples taken off the internet for comparison...
Attached Images
   
colin henshaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th September 2022, 10:34 AM   #12
Victrix
Member
 
Victrix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Sweden
Posts: 584
Default

Interesting knife! At first sight the horn handle and the “pandour” tip makes it look like a hunting knife. This is further corroborated by the absence of a cross guard. On the other hand the large size of the knife and the details on the sheath (lock mechanism and metal tip on sheath) seem to indicate the possibility of professional/military (?) equipment. I was thinking the saw on the back of the blade might be useful to cut through hard bone/antlers for a hunter? The blade looks like intended mainly for thrusting. Is the edge very sharp as well?
Victrix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th September 2022, 05:22 PM   #13
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 720
Default

Thank you all for your comments,
Thank's a lot Colin for the pictures,
i haven't ever seen these models, really look like ! ( just not the crossguard...)

For the sharp edge, yes they are too on both side of the tip ,
Overall except where there is the file-saw
Interesting the massive 8mm blade that ends really sharp at edges .( sorry maybe for my bad english )
Kind regards
Attached Images
 
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th September 2022, 06:16 PM   #14
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 720
Default

For the militar model hypothesis or just for fix it,
Sadly no stamp/name or number on the blade or the handle
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th September 2022, 09:09 PM   #15
Hombre
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 213
Default

Nice find but I should like to see more pictures of the other blade...
That one made me curious!

Best,
Stefan
Hombre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th September 2022, 09:17 PM   #16
colin henshaw
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,425
Default

Here is another one, more like francantolin's knife, without a crossguard.
Attached Images
 
colin henshaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th September 2022, 06:03 PM   #17
Interested Party
Member
 
Interested Party's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Eastern Sierra
Posts: 245
Default

After reviewing post #13, the back of the blade is odd. There are three rows not one or two as for a saw back. The is no set to the teeth to clear chips. So, I don't think it is a saw.

The teeth are not raised in one direction having been cut in like a rasp, but omnidirectional like a bastard file. While it could be a file, what was it made to file? Horses' hooves? A jittery horse and a sharp hunting knife seem like a recipe for disaster. Also, files are usually fully hardened and brittle to prevent wear. To me it seems to be very aggressive decorative knurling more than anything else.
Interested Party is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th September 2022, 06:38 PM   #18
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 720
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hombre View Post
Nice find but I should like to see more pictures of the other blade...
That one made me curious!

Best,
Stefan

Here two pics of the other knife, hilt seems made of horn.

Still thank you for the pictures Colin !
Attached Images
  
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th September 2022, 07:31 PM   #19
colin henshaw
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,425
Default

Just trying to find out a bit more about these knives... it seems many were made by a British cutler who moved to Salem, Madras, India; some knives are marked "Arnachellum". I read that the steel of these Indian-made knives was considered superior to the European product, being hard but not brittle.

Here is an image of the 19th century big-game hunter Sir Samuel Baker with a knife in his belt that looks suspiciously like one of these Indian-produced hunting knives.
Attached Images
 
colin henshaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th September 2022, 10:38 AM   #20
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 3,965
Default

Reminds me of a repurposed pioneer or artillerymans saw back sidearm. The English made stag gripped hunting swords with a saw back, brass D guard, but they were more elegant looking.


Mine is a bit longer, has a leather covered scabbard and a wood hilt with checkered brass fittings. It's rather heavy. Appears to be an earlier model than the straight 1856 version made up to 1900+.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by kronckew; 13th September 2022 at 03:46 PM.
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th September 2022, 01:34 PM   #21
colin henshaw
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,425
Default

For anyone interested- a bit more information is to be found about these knives on a couple of YouTube videos by Matt Easton (Scholagladiatoria). Unfortunately I don't seem to able to do a link to them on my PC, but they should be easy to locate.
colin henshaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th September 2022, 02:01 PM   #22
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 3,965
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by colin henshaw View Post
For anyone interested- a bit more information is to be found about these knives on a couple of YouTube videos by Matt Easton (Scholagladiatoria). Unfortunately I don't seem to able to do a link to them on my PC, but they should be easy to locate.
Matt has a large number of video, most of which are VERY comprehensive, on European as well as more exotic locale bladed items.



If you can't link , a list of the youtube titles would help us find them.


Here's one on the 1856 pioneer sword
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th September 2022, 02:11 PM   #23
colin henshaw
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,425
Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew View Post
Matt has a large number of video, most of which are VERY comprehensive, on European as well as more exotic locale bladed items.



If you can't link , a list of the youtube titles would help us find them.


Here's one on the 1856 pioneer sword
Wayne, if you do a search of YouTube for "Indian Bowie knives" you will find them straight away
colin henshaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th September 2022, 03:30 PM   #24
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 3,965
Default

I indded found Matt's videos on indian bowies.

Anglo indian hunting knives

the guard & blade of the OP's knife, post 1, doesn't fit Matt's description.
Neither does the other bowie from the royal armoury.

Restoring an anglo indian bowie pt. 1

The scabbard on the Indian bowie has a catch much like the OP's.
I concede the OP's knife could have been made/modified in India.

Part 2.

inc. to complete the set.


I also note that many pioneer short swords, artillery short swords, and even rifle company swords (bayonets) were also made officially in India for Indian )and western) troops. I have not seen any 'bowie' style knives from India with a saw back, like on pioneer knives. Indian maybe, custom hunting knife, maybe. The short flat false edge doesn't look very bowie-ish.


I'd like to see some that do.

Last edited by kronckew; 13th September 2022 at 03:45 PM.
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th September 2022, 03:47 PM   #25
Interested Party
Member
 
Interested Party's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Eastern Sierra
Posts: 245
Default

Sorry duplicate URL

Is there a way to completely delete posts?

Last edited by Interested Party; 13th September 2022 at 03:57 PM. Reason: duplicate url
Interested Party is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:14 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.