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Old 3rd July 2021, 02:59 AM   #1
DavidFriedman
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Default 16th C European Trident (War Fork)?

Greetings fellow enthusiasts. I recently acquired this beautiful war fork from Europe. Titled War Fork 1600ís.

It appears similar to some documented examples, but not identical in form.

May I ask if anyone with experience in European polearms has any insight on this piece?

Cheers and thanks.
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Old 3rd July 2021, 02:11 PM   #2
fernando
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Most interesting David ... but, are you sure this is European ?
Any marks ?
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Old 3rd July 2021, 06:38 PM   #3
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Default European?

Hi Fernando,
Iím not 100 % sure itís European, but Iíve never seen a trident like this design in any other region, personally. Iím pretty familiar with Indian and Chinese trident forms.


Any ideas of which region if not Europe?

Unfortunately there arenít any markings I can see, but Iíll scour it more today and see if thereís any hidden away.

I attached an image that showed several European war forks.
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Old 3rd July 2021, 07:05 PM   #4
fernando
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So it is European, David; it is just that i had some doubts about the shape, like looking Asian ... but what do i know .
One thing is certain; it is a beautiful piece .
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Old 3rd July 2021, 07:16 PM   #5
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Default Mystery

Hi Fernando,
Itís definitely a mystery piece for sure. Thanks, I love itís form. I hope itís as old as the ones in the illustration.

Thanks
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Old 4th July 2021, 01:27 PM   #6
fernando
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Do you know where you got that illustration, David ?
I went through authors like George Snook and John Waldman and the only style of polearms resembling yours is the RUNKA. However the differences in shape and construction look visibly different.

.
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Old 4th July 2021, 07:05 PM   #7
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I suspect that old standby A Glossary of the Construction, Decoration, and Use of Arms and Armor in All Countries and in All Times by George Cameron Stone, is the source here.
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Old 5th July 2021, 12:23 AM   #8
Philip
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando View Post
Do you know where you got that illustration, David ?
I went through authors like George Snook and John Waldman and the only style of polearms resembling yours is the RUNKA. However the differences in shape and construction look visibly different.

.
Nando,

I believe that the illustration posted by David is from Stone's GLOSSARY... under the entry "military fork". page 450. The transition between socket and central spike on his example is marked by a bulbous swelling or knuckle which is similar to Stone's no. 4 and 7 which are identified as French, 16th cent.

Thanks for posting your chart, but I think that the series of weapons that is highlighted is a different breed of cat from what we're seeing from David. This, based on the classifications and register of terminology compiled by polearm expert Mario Troso, published in his book Le Armi in Asta delle Infanterie Europee (1000-1500) (Instituto Geografico de Agostini, 1988):

1. In his system, the true war fork (forca di guerra, fourche de guerre) has only two tines which are straight heading out to the tips. There is a subtype for hunting (forca di caccia) which are curved like a modern dinner fork although still with only two points.

2. David's weapon falls into the category of tridente / Dreizack. There are, as the name suggests, 3 points, the center one is usually much longer than the smaller two lateral ones. There are also no edges, this is a piercing weapon with the side tines serving as grapplers.

3. The shape shown in the evolutionary chart, though similar in profile, has a bladed format and is put by Troso in a separate class, called variously a spetum, ranseur, brandistocco, or runka in his and other references. The fifteenth-century Spanish writer on military affairs and combat techniques, Pietro Monte, discussed the technique of using this weapon, which he was apparently quite a fan of, in his Exercitiorum atque artis militaris collectanea and in Jeffrey L Forgeng's (ex-Higgins Armory, now curator of arms and armor at the Worcester Art Museum) translation of same, it is consistently referred to as a spetum.

Filipe
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Old 5th July 2021, 05:49 PM   #9
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Obrigado Filipe,

Now i can clearly see page 450 in my Stone copy.
My posting of the illustration from ďEducational ChartsĒ (Met 1917) was my (poor) way to exclude David's specimen from such typologies. It is obviously that it is not a fork (forquilha), as his seller claimed, with its three points as you well recall, but i fail to discern its category among all types of tridents pointed out. I can see your pertinent point in that Stone's examples #4 and #7 show us that bulbous swelling in the center spike basis but, all the rest configures (to me) a rather different approach. So different that, so far, i dare say that, David's trident variation is so distant from all seen as European than from the Jawa trisola... for one .

http://http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3630&highlight=trisula


I am glad i am no specialist and so i can suggest nonsense things.

Fica bem.


.
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Old 7th July 2021, 07:43 AM   #10
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Hi,
Sorry was busy for the last few days. I got the picture online when typing in war fork or some such key word. I will review my copy of Stones book. Just been so busy.



Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando View Post
Do you know where you got that illustration, David ?
I went through authors like George Snook and John Waldman and the only style of polearms resembling yours is the RUNKA. However the differences in shape and construction look visibly different.

.
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Old 7th July 2021, 07:47 AM   #11
DavidFriedman
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Default Remarkable

Thanks again Philip for your remarkable references. I will look up Mario Troso as well. I looked up the Pierre Monte book, but itís at around 75 shekels, so I have to wait until I have a little extra to splurge. I hope it has some fantastic maneuvers in it.

Thanks again.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip View Post
Nando,

I believe that the illustration posted by David is from Stone's GLOSSARY... under the entry "military fork". page 450. The transition between socket and central spike on his example is marked by a bulbous swelling or knuckle which is similar to Stone's no. 4 and 7 which are identified as French, 16th cent.

Thanks for posting your chart, but I think that the series of weapons that is highlighted is a different breed of cat from what we're seeing from David. This, based on the classifications and register of terminology compiled by polearm expert Mario Troso, published in his book Le Armi in Asta delle Infanterie Europee (1000-1500) (Instituto Geografico de Agostini, 1988):

1. In his system, the true war fork (forca di guerra, fourche de guerre) has only two tines which are straight heading out to the tips. There is a subtype for hunting (forca di caccia) which are curved like a modern dinner fork although still with only two points.

2. David's weapon falls into the category of tridente / Dreizack. There are, as the name suggests, 3 points, the center one is usually much longer than the smaller two lateral ones. There are also no edges, this is a piercing weapon with the side tines serving as grapplers.

3. The shape shown in the evolutionary chart, though similar in profile, has a bladed format and is put by Troso in a separate class, called variously a spetum, ranseur, brandistocco, or runka in his and other references. The fifteenth-century Spanish writer on military affairs and combat techniques, Pietro Monte, discussed the technique of using this weapon, which he was apparently quite a fan of, in his Exercitiorum atque artis militaris collectanea and in Jeffrey L Forgeng's (ex-Higgins Armory, now curator of arms and armor at the Worcester Art Museum) translation of same, it is consistently referred to as a spetum.

Filipe
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