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Old 7th December 2018, 06:08 PM   #1
eftihis
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Default A short balkan musket

Do you have any ideas about the specific area of the Balkans that this musket originated?
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Old 7th December 2018, 06:15 PM   #2
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Oh yes
100 % Tunisian / North African
look in our forum with these key words
plus the lock looks very Spanish or Portuguese to me
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Old 7th December 2018, 06:17 PM   #3
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Thanks Kubur! Are the photos visible allright? Or you have to download them?
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Old 7th December 2018, 07:42 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eftihis
Thanks Kubur! Are the photos visible allright? Or you have to download them?
Kubur obviously can see the pics but I can not. They will not open so can you please post to the thread in the normal way?
Stu
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Old 10th December 2018, 08:00 AM   #5
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Now they are working!
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Old 10th December 2018, 10:16 AM   #6
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Just to add something the butt is very Ottoman and i'll place your gun in the 18th c. not the 19th c.
Tunisian as i said and you have something similar in Tirri's book...
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Old 10th December 2018, 07:01 PM   #7
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I do not believe that this gun is Tunisian or in fact North African. The "boxy" butt profile IMHO is all wrong for that region.
Stu
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Old 11th December 2018, 09:37 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kahnjar1
I do not believe that this gun is Tunisian or in fact North African. The "boxy" butt profile IMHO is all wrong for that region.
Stu
Ok I own you some explanations.
Yes the butt / stock is probably Turkish or from the Balkans.
The lock is Sardinian according to Tirri but I think more at a Spanish or a Portuguese lock. The decoration is pure Tunisian.
Now if you don't have it, buy Elgood's book on the Balkans, he explains how Ottoman guns were exported to North Africa and Tunisia and fitted for the local market.
So yes this gun is Tunisian but with some pieces from all over the Meditteranean. Look at the so-called Ottoman Balkans guns they are fitted with Italian lock and canons, but they are not Italians...
I hope that I manged to convince you...
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Old 11th December 2018, 08:12 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
Ok I own you some explanations.
Yes the butt / stock is probably Turkish or from the Balkans.
The lock is Sardinian according to Tirri but I think more at a Spanish or a Portuguese lock. The decoration is pure Tunisian.
Now if you don't have it, buy Elgood's book on the Balkans, he explains how Ottoman guns were exported to North Africa and Tunisia and fitted for the local market.
So yes this gun is Tunisian but with some pieces from all over the Meditteranean. Look at the so-called Ottoman Balkans guns they are fitted with Italian lock and canons, but they are not Italians...
I hope that I manged to convince you...
Hi Kubur,
If you refer to the original question by Eftihis, he is asking where this gun ORIGINATES. It may have Tunisian decoration but that does not answer his question.
The lock on the subject gun is not Sardinian. I show here pics of the lock on my Sardinian gun and you will see that it is entirely different from that on Eftihis' gun, and YES I do have Elgood's book on Greek/Balkan guns and note that the Ottomans and indeed many countries exported guns.
Stu
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Old 12th December 2018, 12:21 AM   #10
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http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/search...archid=1178539

Hello

The lock is Portuguese, product of export, or recycling of the lock of some weapon

Affectionately
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Old 12th December 2018, 12:25 AM   #11
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http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=Fecho

Hola

Perdon por la confusion
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Old 12th December 2018, 10:34 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fernando K
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/search...archid=1178539

Hello

The lock is Portuguese, product of export, or recycling of the lock of some weapon

Affectionately
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
The lock is Sardinian according to Tirri but I think more at a Spanish or a Portuguese lock.
Agreed! I remember the excellent discussion that you had with Rick about these locks
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Old 12th December 2018, 11:47 AM   #13
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Hello

Here is an image of a sardinian lock, already uploaded in this forum

Affectionately
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Old 13th December 2018, 03:58 PM   #14
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Hi Eftihis

That is a very interesting musket. As Stu mentioned, the stock shape is done very much in Ottoman/Turkish fashion. But as Kubur mentioned, the decoration does indeed remind me of Tunisian. The lock is definitely a Portuguese variant. Probably made for export. And the Link provided above which included Philip's comprehensive post is most helpful.

Eftihis: Could you post a close-up photo of the lock ? If possible, an outside, inside, and top views ?

Again, a really nice and interesting shoulder gun. Could have been made for a Tunisian customer using a variety of parts available.

Here is a pic of the later made, cheap quality copies made for the African continent. This one is in working order, but took some work. LOL

Rick
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Old 13th December 2018, 06:31 PM   #15
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Hello

The lock presented by Ricky is not exactly a copy. because the half cock is achieved by the little piece that is in front of the cock. In change in the weapon presented by Efthis, the half cock is achieved by a notch in the tumbler, as in all lock with vertical shooting system

Affectionately
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Old 14th December 2018, 10:38 PM   #16
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Just to feed the discussion
Tirri's Tunisian gun with a stock / butt Ottoman / Algerian
and a lock Portuguese?
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Old 15th December 2018, 02:47 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
Just to feed the discussion
Tirri's Tunisian gun with a stock / butt Ottoman / Algerian
and a lock Portuguese?
Hi Kubur,
Yes the stock shown here is typically Algerian/Tunisian, (2 other Algerian guns shown) but does not resemble the SHAPE and PROFILE of the subject gun. It would appear that the lock has been identified as Portugese but the shape of the butt, although probably Balkan, has not yet been identified as ORIGINATING from a particular region, which is what Eftihis is trying to identify.
Stu
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Old 16th March 2021, 09:07 AM   #18
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Somehow, when posting, i missed to mention the inscription that is on the barrel. Hope someone can tell us what it is!
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Old 17th March 2021, 04:57 AM   #19
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Could you please share a photo of the INSIDE of your lock? I might have some more info on it if I could verify what the internal mechanism looks like.
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Old 17th March 2021, 09:11 AM   #20
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The inscription on the barrel says

ستة ٢٨٢

“Year (1)282” which is equivalent to 1865-6

The other inscription is more tricky. I think it says

عمل ساسي

“Work of Sassi”

Sassi is a name common in North Africa. I am not sure if it derives from a place, in which case it could be understood as having been made in that place. It might also come from Awlad Sassi, the name of an Algerian tribe
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Old 17th March 2021, 09:48 PM   #21
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Thank you very much for the translation kwiatek! Dear Philipp, here is the back of the lock.
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Old 18th March 2021, 06:38 PM   #22
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Hi Eftihis

Thanks for the lock photos.

The lock looks Portuguese to me also. One difference I notice is that the tumbler has to notches. One for safety and the upper for firing position. The Portuguese locks I've seen have only one firing notch on the tumbler as shown on the lock I posted. There is usually a thumb piece in front of the hammer neck that can be rotated to engage a slot in the neck of the hammer to act as a safety. Maybe yours is a different variant (?)
Philip can address these Portuguese locks better when he returns.

Again, very interesting gun with a mix of cultures.

Rick
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Old 19th March 2021, 01:10 AM   #23
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Default two varieties of Portuguese locks, explained

Thanks for the additional photos showing us the lock interior.

What you see is perhaps a North African- made version of the most common of the Portuguese-designed flint mechanisms. It's called a fecho de nó or "knot" lock. I can't explain the significance of the term, it appears to be period nomenclature and not a later collectors' neologism, like "miquelet" or "mortuary sword" coined generations after the fact.

Be that as it may, the essentials of the fecho de nó are a typical flintlock tumbler and sear system with half- and full cock detents. On a lock with external cosmetic or stylistic features that are typically Portuguese.

Rick points out that there is a similar-looking one that has a gravity- or thumb operated pivoting stop on the outside of the plate that serves as a safety, engaging a notch at the base of the cock. That type of lock is called fecho meio à portuguesa e meio à francesa, or lock half-Portuguese and half-French. It has a French-style tumbler and sear arrangement (though without half-cock notch) and the Portuguese pivoting safety which is seen on yet further variations of flintlock mechansms from this country. Please refer to post #14 for the late export example that he shared with us.

It's important to note that despite the Portuguese preference for these pivoting safeties, the behind-the-cock "dog" that was popular in parts of northern Europe (especially England) was not favored here.

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Old 19th March 2021, 01:30 AM   #24
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Default an export Portuguese lock for comparison

Attached are a couple of photos showing an example of a fecho de nó made in the 19th cent. for export, probably at Braga (Portugal) or Liège. It is "in the white", unused and most likely never installed on a gun. Compared to the obvious production shortcuts and fairly crude finish of the example already on the gun under consideration (not to mention late-production export trade guns from Belgium), the build quality is quite good on this one and the mechanical essentials are the same.

There was quite a market for flintlock guns in Africa down to the eve of the First World War despite the growing use of percussion systems worldwide. Because of the long Portuguese presence in some parts of the continent, there was continued demand for archaic flint systems such as this due to the strength of tradition. The complete guns varied a lot in quality; the typical trade musket was cheaply made, often with a red-painted stock studded with brass upholstery tacks and incorporating a small mirror on the buttstock. (again I refer you to Rick's post #14 showing the extremely rough quality of the locks used on such guns, and his mention of the effort needed to tune it up to work properly). However, one occasionally sees very well made ones, obviously for sale to persons of means. The popular name for these guns in Portuguese style was Lazarinos, in tribute to the Brescian family of barrel-makers who flourished a couple centuries earlier.
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Old 19th March 2021, 01:33 AM   #25
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Here is a higher-class example of a 19th cent. Liège-made fowler in Portuguese style,of better quality than the average "trade" musket, with a hybrid Portuguese-French lock as explained previously
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Old 19th March 2021, 08:55 AM   #26
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Dear Philipp,
Regarding the use of flintlocks after the introduction of cupslock, i believe the main reason is the higher difficulty in aquiring cups than gunpowder. For an intependant fighter in a remote area, non supplied by an army depot, is much more easy to resupply for gunpowder, that can come for many sources and sometimes even produced localy, than to have to find gunpowder and cups, which is an industrial product.
I find extremely interesting your comment about the lazarino muskets. Here in Crete we had the term "lazarina" for localy made long muskets, copies of the French pattern in the oriental style for export as the example seen here. The name was supposely given because initially these muskets had trade barells made by the "Lazarino" or "Lazarini" brands.
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Old 19th March 2021, 05:53 PM   #27
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Philip: Thanks for the additional information ref these Portuguese style locks.
The photo of the lock on your Post #24 you can immediately see the French styling for the lock plate. Most interesting.

Eftihis: While locally made, Eastern market guns in percussion are not rare, they only turn up occasionally. The likely reason is as you mention. Availability and cost. Hard to believe flintlocks and miquelets continued in use at least through the 3rd quarter of the 19th Century in the Eastern markets.

Rick
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Old 20th March 2021, 04:05 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eftihis
Dear Philipp,
Regarding the use of flintlocks after the introduction of cupslock, i believe the main reason is the higher difficulty in aquiring cups than gunpowder. For an intependant fighter in a remote area, non supplied by an army depot, is much more easy to resupply for gunpowder, that can come for many sources and sometimes even produced localy, than to have to find gunpowder and cups, which is an industrial product.
I find extremely interesting your comment about the lazarino muskets. Here in Crete we had the term "lazarina" for localy made long muskets, copies of the French pattern in the oriental style for export as the example seen here. The name was supposely given because initially these muskets had trade barells made by the "Lazarino" or "Lazarini" brands.
That is an impressive example of a Cretan-made gun! It appears to have a higher standard of fit and finish than many Balkan guns, and the heavily French design of the stock is quite elegant, too. A wonderful piece, I hope it's yours but wish it were mine. The Oriental style is quite apparent in the numerous silver capucines holding the barrel to the stock, something not fashionable in Europe.

I agree with your comment about the relative ease of obtaining flints (which could be made locally), as opposed to percussion caps which had to be imported and could be difficult to get in remote areas. Note that the flint-knapping industry in Brandon, southern England, kept going into the early 20th century, the only such large-scale production of gunflints left in Europe at the time. Very appropriate for England, which still ran the largest colonial empire in the world and thus saw a ready demand for such products until the market finally fizzled out after the First World War.
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Old 22nd March 2021, 09:34 PM   #29
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Dear Philipp, this last example is not locally made! It is 100% made in France, as aluxury gun for export to the east. The locals copied this style, with a lower quality but for sure less expensive imitation. Having said that though, i am thinking that in order for the French to make this style for export, the locals liked it.. So i dont know ηow this taste for caputcines was first developed!
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Old 28th May 2021, 01:59 PM   #30
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Default Another similar lock

Again, a north African musket.
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