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Old 2nd August 2021, 04:46 PM   #1
fernando
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Default Rapier and marks for ID ... please

A topic initially posted by a new member in "The EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKS" thread ... to be continued here, for further discussion.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...826#post264826
(As from post #302)

Anyone to give some light on the marks of this beautiful rapier ?

Last edited by fernando; 2nd August 2021 at 05:20 PM.
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Old 4th August 2021, 03:19 PM   #2
Jim McDougall
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Still working on the inscription, but really hard to see the markings clearly as they are somewhat worn or poorly executed. Any way Robert that you could describe them as seen from hands on examination?

Also, as noted by Fernando, it would be good to see the ricasso to look for markings, and images of the pommel as well as inside of guard would help.
What is the blade length.
While screws seem unusual, and I am inclined to think these appear modern, Norman ("The Rapier and Smallsword", 1980) does describe various means of attachment where screws are used. Since they were often used inside the cup for securing the guardopolvo (dust cover) it would seem possibly for arms as well.

The only part of the inscription I can make out is the 'PERO' noted by Fernando and possibly that is a misspell of Pedro. The symbols with horned circle in appearance could be the letter D or E, as similar cases in Spanish inscriptions used similar devices in place of those letters.
This glyph has uses in zodiac (=bull) or the number 8, but not sure if applicable here.
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Old 4th August 2021, 03:33 PM   #3
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A certainty ... and an attempt ...


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Old 4th August 2021, 07:05 PM   #4
Jim McDougall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando View Post
A certainty ... and an attempt ...


.

Very good attempt I would say! and almost too tempting, given that those symbols I mentioned in the inscription resemble the zodiac glyph for bull. (Toro=bull).
It seem that in many inscriptions regarding place 'in Toledo' etc. use various spelling and abbreviations.
In one case N T O L is used and the separation of the entire phrase or wording ends up on both obverse and reverse on the blade.
Interestingly a number of the Solingen smiths who went to Toledo in the 17th century were appointed espadero del Rey (maker to the King) and often EN ALAMEIN (Germany) was in the inscription.
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Old 4th August 2021, 10:33 PM   #5
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More photos as requested.
As far as my own impressions go I think the photos capture everything I observed. The museum got out 10 swords for us to measure weigh and photograph but they prefer to do most of the handling themselves. We were only scheduled for an hour and a half which we went over by half an hour thanks to keeping the curators interest with what we were able to identify just off the top of our heads. It still meant a bit of a rush though.

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Old 5th August 2021, 04:45 PM   #6
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Quote:
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... Very good attempt I would say! ...
Jim, i am glad that you fully read my posts ... don't you ? Just kidding .
I mentioned a 'certainty' and an 'attempt'. The attempt was to guess that the 'TOL' letters could be a short for Toledo. And the certainty went for 'TORO' (the smith's name).The only letter that could look suspicious, the 'R', leaves no doubt when compared with the 'R' of Pero.
Still we need some member familiar with this blade (and marks) to show up.


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Old 6th August 2021, 05:15 AM   #7
Jim McDougall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando View Post
Jim, i am glad that you fully read my posts ... don't you ? Just kidding .
I mentioned a 'certainty' and an 'attempt'. The attempt was to guess that the 'TOL' letters could be a short for Toledo. And the certainty went for 'TORO' (the smith's name).The only letter that could look suspicious, the 'R', leaves no doubt when compared with the 'R' of Pero.
Still we need some member familiar with this blade (and marks) to show up.


.
LOL! YES, I do !! and usually several times to be sure I havent missed something as you include a good deal of content, and my attention span is not great.
It seems like that R in Toro corresponds to the other R, but like the loop is flat or missing. It has to be an R though.
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Old 5th August 2021, 05:29 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall View Post
... While screws seem unusual, and I am inclined to think these appear modern, Norman ("The Rapier and Smallsword", 1980) does describe various means of attachment where screws are used. Since they were often used inside the cup for securing the guardopolvo (dust cover) it would seem possibly for arms as well...
Fixation of the cup bowl by screws is rather common; so much or more than the system of welding the cup to the quillons. Screws with a modern look may (may) exist because the old ones fall off and people replaces them with the ones at hand. While Robert's sample has a modern one, is it my eyes or is also missing another in the fixation arms.


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Old 5th August 2021, 06:32 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando View Post
Fixation of the cup bowl by screws is rather common; so much or more than the system of welding the cup to the quillons. Screws with a modern look may (may) exist because the old ones fall off and people replaces them with the ones at hand. While Robert's sample has a modern one, is it my eyes or is also missing another in the fixation arms.


.
In looking into the late Nick Norman's fabulous book on rapier and smallsword hilts, he lists I believe seven methods of these kinds of affixation, so well noted on the use of screws. The old screws certainly may have been lost, or perhaps destroyed in the dismantling of components typically required in maintainence or refurbishing these swords experienced over their long existence.
You're right, another is missing inside the cup.
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