Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 9th February 2011, 11:15 PM   #1
laEspadaAncha
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 608
Default Translation Assistance Requested for Kaskara Hilt

I long ago lost track of how many sharp and pointy objects have come - and gone - through my hands over the years, but this is my first kaskara.

The sword measures a little over 27 inches / 69 cm overall with a 22.5 inch / 57 cm blade that measures 1.125 inches in width. Both sides of the (rather sharp) blade are covered in thuluth script, but one side of the grip also has something written in Arabic that doesn't as wildly stylized as the thuluth script on the blade, which I am humbly hoping someone may be able to translate.

I have attached several photos below, including a photo of the reverse side of the cylindrical grip that is covered in a nicely executed design.





laEspadaAncha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th February 2011, 11:33 PM   #2
A.alnakkas
Member
 
A.alnakkas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Kuwait
Posts: 1,248
Default

I can read one word: العدل which means Justice. Though i would like to point out that am lousy at translating Thuluth + persian inscription.
A.alnakkas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th February 2011, 11:50 PM   #3
laEspadaAncha
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 608
Default

Hello Abdullatif,

I remember your introductory thread in December in which you offered your assistance in translating Arabic, and I kindly thank you for your assistance in this thread.

In your opinion, is there more to the hilt inscription than the one word you were able to decipher? I ask as when I enlarge the word for "justice," it would seem to my untrained eye there are other characters still unaccounted for on the hilt.

Lastly, if re-orienting the image (by rotating or inverting it) or taking additional photographs might assist in your efforts, I would happily oblige.

Thank you once again...

Regards,

Chris
laEspadaAncha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th February 2011, 03:46 AM   #4
DaveS
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 327
Default

My eyes might be deceiving me but is that an ivory handle? It looks like
an age crack in one of the pictures similar to an ivory crack.......Dave.
DaveS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th February 2011, 05:09 AM   #5
laEspadaAncha
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 608
Default

Hi Dave,

I wish it was made of ivory. While not absolutely certain, I am fairly confident it is made of bone... Not only is there no visible (cross-hatched) grain, but there is what appears to be visible (Haversian system) streaking on the undecorated areas of the handle.

Regards,

Chris
laEspadaAncha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th February 2011, 07:33 AM   #6
A.alnakkas
Member
 
A.alnakkas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Kuwait
Posts: 1,248
Default

Hey

Yes please do rotate it, the word is followed by another letter which i think in a normal script.. it means that it will be followed by the word on top. A zoom on the top word and the letter following Justice will be nice.

Wonderful piece btw
A.alnakkas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th February 2011, 07:15 PM   #7
laEspadaAncha
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 608
Default

Hi Abdullatif,

Thank you for the kind words. I have attached below two images, one of the character following "Justice," and another of the word above it. Thanks again for your assistance.



laEspadaAncha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th February 2011, 09:43 PM   #8
DaveS
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 327
Default

Chris: Yes, looking at it again it probably is bone. Even so, with all the many
kaskaras iv'e seen this is the first that i have seen done in bone, ivory, or
whatever. That sets this sword off as special, at least to me anyway..Dave.
DaveS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th February 2011, 01:44 AM   #9
A.alnakkas
Member
 
A.alnakkas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Kuwait
Posts: 1,248
Default

hmm it says : العدل و سد. means: Justice and ???. the second word is "Sad" which means something that blocks. Makes no sense
A.alnakkas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th February 2011, 03:40 AM   #10
DaveS
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 327
Default

Chris: Thinking about it again i seem to recall years ago that in one of Fagans
catalogues there was a kaskara with a bone handle. For all we know, this
might be the same one, as some of these pieces do seem to travel around
between collectors..........Dave.
DaveS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th February 2011, 04:00 AM   #11
laEspadaAncha
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 608
Default

Hello Dave,

Interesting indeed. I have had an eye out for one for some time, and after reading a fascinating thread here last year (and in particular the contributions by Jim, Tim, and Iain), have been hoping and waiting for one covered in thuluth script (Khartoum is one of my all-time favorite movies). However, luck had not prevailed until this one more-or-less fell into my lap this last month.

It would truly be fortunate to hear form someone who has the catalog in which you seem to recall a similar (or same?) bone-handled kaskara, who could either confirm it is the same one or post pictures of it for comparison.


*****

Abdullatif - Thank you once again for your assistance in translating the inscription. When you say that the contextual use of "sad" refers to "something that blocks," do you mean in the literal sense, or in a more metaphorical sense, i.e., it reverses the meaning of the word or words with which it appears?

Can you think of a loose translation in which "Sad" - or as you state - "something that blocks" along with "Justice" might make sense? Maybe it's a colloquial usage?


*****


Regards,

Chris
laEspadaAncha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th February 2011, 08:48 AM   #12
A.alnakkas
Member
 
A.alnakkas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Kuwait
Posts: 1,248
Default

Hey Dave,

I have been thinking of this all day. Nope, still makes no sense. I'll check around maybe someone will know a connection between the two.

It could be related to Sudanese accent which in that case, i can offer little assistance.
A.alnakkas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2011, 05:21 AM   #13
laEspadaAncha
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 608
Default

I hope the title didn't exclude the VS community at large from commenting on the kaskara. I am looking forward to - and asking for - input from others regarding the sword...

In particular, given the thuluth script, would you consider this to be a Mahdist era exmaple? To what part of the Sudan would you attribute this?

Regards,

Chris
laEspadaAncha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2011, 06:21 AM   #14
DaveS
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 327
Default kaskara handle

Chris: I looked high and low for those old catalogues. Haven't been able to
find them yet. But i'm sure i did see a kaskara in one of Fagans old books
that had a bone handle. But i will keep looking. You've got my curiosity up.
Dave.
DaveS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2011, 05:54 PM   #15
laEspadaAncha
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 608
Default

Hi Dave,

Thank you for searching nonetheless.

Any thoughts or estimations regarding age and/or particular area of attribution? I assume it's Sudanese, but am of the understanding there is some degree of variability in form from region to region.

Regards,

Chris
laEspadaAncha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th January 2013, 01:39 AM   #16
Dom
Member
 
Dom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG)
Posts: 1,142
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.alnakkas
Hey Dave,

I have been thinking of this all day. Nope, still makes no sense. I'll check around maybe someone will know a connection between the two.

It could be related to Sudanese accent which in that case, i can offer little assistance.
I come to rescue ... my Bro. Abdallatif

Lotfi, you're correct when you're mentioning
"still makes no sense"
Taghrid has got the translation;
"ASSAD" either "LION" and "EL ADGLE" either "THE JUSTICE"

the problem is ... there is no meaning
- it's a "literal translation", and not the translation of the meaning
- it's cant be a name
- Taghrid suggest that a part of the script is missing

+

Dom
Dom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th January 2013, 01:48 AM   #17
laEspadaAncha
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 608
Default

Hello Dom,

Thank you for asking your 'other half' to have a look...

This is the same translation as provided by a friend of mine some time after starting this thread. Unfortunately, I can find no contextual reference to whom this may have been in reference to, though I hope it might be of some use to Mefidk in his efforts to research the origin of the thuluth-covered kaskaras.

Cheers,

Chris
laEspadaAncha is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:34 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.