Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Keris Warung Kopi

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11th February 2024, 03:19 PM   #1
Athanase
Member
 
Athanase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Paris (France)
Posts: 407
Default Balinese Keris with 2 Pamor

Hello,

I just received this balinese Keris with old blade with 2 pamor.
The blade came with bugis selut in brass, and balinese hilt which is unusual.
I have already seen this type of hilt in second half of XXth century production, but maybe is more old ?

Luckily I managed to adapt a sheath that I had bought a year ago but without a blade. I replaced the Selut with an Uwer.
Attached Images
          
Athanase is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th February 2024, 04:21 PM   #2
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,050
Default

Very nice pamor Tangkis blade. It has been my understanding that blades like this with a different pamor on each side are meant as a protection against black magic.
I also have a keris with pamor Tangkis in Bali dress though i have never been fully convinced that the blade origin is Bali/Lombak, even though a very well informed senior collect once told me he felt it was quite possible. I do have the same question about your blade, especially given the style of gonjo. But as you may know, it is not at all unusual to find Javanese blades in Bali dress that are very legitimate. With mine it is clear that the Balinese sarung was indeed created specifically for the blade.
Very interesting and somewhat unusual Cecekahan style hilt btw.
Attached Images
  
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th February 2024, 05:17 PM   #3
Athanase
Member
 
Athanase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Paris (France)
Posts: 407
Default

Thank you David. You Keris is very nice !
The blade length is 42,5cm is very long for the hypothesis of javanese blade.
I have the same tow pamor in other balineses blades (one pamor per blade).
The Kebo (javanese name) gandik is unusual for old balinese blade (often I see that on Moderne blades). Maybe the blade is more older than XIXth century.
Athanase is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th February 2024, 05:56 PM   #4
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,580
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Athanase View Post
Hello,

I just received this balinese Keris with old blade with 2 pamor.
The blade came with bugis selut in brass, and balinese hilt which is unusual.
I have already seen this type of hilt in second half of XXth century production, but maybe is more old ?

Luckily I managed to adapt a sheath that I had bought a year ago but without a blade. I replaced the Selut with an Uwer.
Hello Séverin,

Very attractive keris blade, I like it! Please can you show us how the adopted scabbard fits the blade?

Regards,
Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th February 2024, 06:02 PM   #5
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,580
Default

Hello David,

A very nice keris you have shown us, thank you! What have you done with the scabbard and handle that it looks so shiny? You just polished the wood or have you given it a new shellac finish?

Regards,
Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th February 2024, 07:24 PM   #6
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,746
Default

If I completely disregard the Balinese style dress, I would be inclined to place this blade as East Jawa. Stylistically it echoes Mojopahit.

I doubt that it was made in Bali, but it could easily have been made in Lombok & fitted with its dress there, or it could have come from East Jawa, Bali & Jawa are only a narrow strip of water apart, and Balinese people have lived in East Jawa for a very long time, the reverse is also true.

Then there is the fact that many Balinese pusaka keris blades are Javanese in origin.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th February 2024, 08:00 PM   #7
Athanase
Member
 
Athanase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Paris (France)
Posts: 407
Default

So it's probably an old East Javanese blade.
Are long blades over 40cm common in East Java?
Is it possible to relate it stylistically more precisely to a Tanghu?
I am aware that it is very worn and that the Greneng as well as the Kembang Kacang have disappeared.
Athanase is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th February 2024, 08:23 PM   #8
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,746
Default

I do incline to East Jawa for this blade, but there are insufficient indicators to be too definite about that. What I can be a little more definite about is that I can see nothing in the elements of style or construction that point to it having been made in Bali itself.

Tangguh is an opinion on origin, it is a classification system that uses certain indicators to form the basis for an opinion on where the blade might have originated.

We normally use about a dozen or so indicators, and only a couple of those indicators rely completely on the appearance of the blade, I cannot give a firm opinion on this blade from just a photo on a computer screen.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th February 2024, 08:59 PM   #9
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,050
Default

Alan, i am curious what you thoughts might be on my blade concerning origin. As i stated, the dress seems to have been made for it, but i remain on the fence regarding where the blade may have been made.
Attached Images
     
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th February 2024, 10:11 PM   #10
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 6,746
Default

Pretty much the same as for Athanase David, except that if I look at it as a whole I'd incline more to Lombok.

The reason for this variation is that Athanase's blade does have a couple of indicators that are Mojo in style --- not age, but style, the upright blumbangan, the slow luk. Your blade has a squarish blumbangan, still has slow luk, similar pamor, but it does not look even vaguely Mojoish to my eye.

Lombok had a population of people from Jawa, Bali, Bugis & of course the Sasaks. In my opinion, more likely to be Lombok, but there is nothing that waves a Bali flag.

Like much to do with keris, its just opinion, & opinions rest upon experience. Somebody with equal but different experience to my own could have a different opinion.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2024, 10:09 AM   #11
henri
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 81
Default

An other one I got from one of our famous member !
Attached Images
    
henri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2024, 10:28 AM   #12
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by henri View Post
An other one I got from one of our famous member !
Famous member?
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2024, 01:30 PM   #13
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,580
Default

Hello David,

Have you overlooked my question in #5?
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2024, 03:42 PM   #14
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,050
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen View Post
Hello David,

A very nice keris you have shown us, thank you! What have you done with the scabbard and handle that it looks so shiny? You just polished the wood or have you given it a new shellac finish?

Regards,
Detlef
Sorry Detlef, i did miss that question.
The ensemble came with that finish. It does seem to be some sort of shellac finish. A bit unusual, but i have no idea where or when it was applied.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2024, 03:44 PM   #15
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,050
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey View Post
Pretty much the same as for Athanase David, except that if I look at it as a whole I'd incline more to Lombok.

The reason for this variation is that Athanase's blade does have a couple of indicators that are Mojo in style --- not age, but style, the upright blumbangan, the slow luk. Your blade has a squarish blumbangan, still has slow luk, similar pamor, but it does not look even vaguely Mojoish to my eye.

Lombok had a population of people from Jawa, Bali, Bugis & of course the Sasaks. In my opinion, more likely to be Lombok, but there is nothing that waves a Bali flag.

Like much to do with keris, its just opinion, & opinions rest upon experience. Somebody with equal but different experience to my own could have a different opinion.
Thanks Alan. I have been going under the Lombok assumption for some time with this keris, but i am always open to different opinions.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2024, 06:41 PM   #16
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,580
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David View Post
Sorry Detlef, i did miss that question.
The ensemble came with that finish. It does seem to be some sort of shellac finish. A bit unusual, but i have no idea where or when it was applied.
Thank you David!
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th February 2024, 04:08 AM   #17
kino
Member
 
kino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 985
Default

How are the blades forged to get opposing pamors.
kino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th February 2024, 02:04 PM   #18
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,233
Wink

Hello Albert,

The vast majority of keris blades exhibits a 3-layered construction with a central steel layer for holding an edge enclosed by two sheets of pamor. Thus, the pamor can be chosen for each side.

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th February 2024, 04:51 PM   #19
kino
Member
 
kino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 985
Default

Thanks Kai.
I suppose the same technique is applied to Moro Kris’ with opposing patterns.
kino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th February 2024, 06:59 PM   #20
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,233
Default

Yes, I believe so (never studied such an example). Except for a few (and usually more recent) Moro kris with blades made from a single billet of imported steel, all others that I've seen followed the traditional 3-layered construction.

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th February 2024, 03:15 AM   #21
Gavin Nugent
Member
 
Gavin Nugent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,818
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kino View Post
How are the blades forged to get opposing pamors.
Here is a visual link that offers some insights to what Kai mentions.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...42&postcount=5
Gavin Nugent is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:43 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.