Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 19th June 2024, 09:09 PM   #1
piratelady
Member
 
Join Date: May 2024
Posts: 3
Default Sword Identification?

Hello; I was told this sword is from the 18th century. I think any of the markings maybe too pitted to see now. The handle appears to be wood as it has some small gouges in it. The blade is 24 inches or 62cm. There also appears to be the numbers 18 or 13 on the top of the handle.
Attached Images
    

Last edited by piratelady; 20th June 2024 at 06:20 PM. Reason: Adding info
piratelady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th June 2024, 12:25 AM   #2
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,928
Default

Interesting saber, thank you for posting it here.
Its really hard to tell material from photos, while this appears wood, it might be horn.
The blade could very well be late 18th c. European, but the sword in its ersatz hilting seems of course very much later, into early 20th c. Its very common for old European blades circulating in colonial regions to be remounted numerous times.

The hilt is a common stirrup hilt type used by many nations in varying degree so hard to identify, but it reminds me of an Ethiopian 'gurade' in a sense and of early 20th c. Obviously the Lion of Judah is absent on this example, but the character of the hilt seems similar.
Welcome to the forum.....great handle!
Attached Images
 
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th June 2024, 10:27 AM   #3
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
Default

Welcome to the forum, Piratelady . How long is the blade ?
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th June 2024, 06:11 PM   #4
piratelady
Member
 
Join Date: May 2024
Posts: 3
Default

Hello fernando, the blade is 24 inches. I am almost positive the handle is wood. It has some small gouges in it that a horn would not have.
piratelady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th June 2024, 10:07 PM   #5
Radboud
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 261
Default

As Jim has aluded to, this is a sword is a composition of (some) original parts from different swords.

The hilt looks like it came from a German new model artillery sabre while the blade at first glance looks to be French in style, possibly mid 19th Cent. Without markings and blade diamensions it's difficult to be sure, but it looks similar to the types of blades seen on the French m1845 infantry officers sword.

See if you can see any reminants of engraving on the spine of the blade close to the hilt.

The hilt is missing the backstrap, grip tabs and pommel cap that would have gone with that guard and the wood grips are modern replacements. Looking at how the blade is attached to the hilt, and given the likely newer age of the parts, I would judge this to be a more recent marriage of parts, than a colonial era eratz sword.
Radboud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st June 2024, 03:27 PM   #6
Norman McCormick
Member
 
Norman McCormick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,595
Default

Hi,
To my mind this is surely a late 18thC early 19thC hanger style blade. The blade length and the larger fuller terminating at the point, to me at least, are sure fire indicators of this type. The M1845 French infantry sword has a quill point style blade which is very different from the posters blade. The D-guard reminds me strongly of an early Blucher sabre style hilt, see attached photo, although the portapee/sword knot slit, in the photo provided, looks smaller than in a Blucher. The grip is probably a replacement as is possibly but not definitively the guard but I think these are period alterations and not later as proposed. The numerals on the guard may be a rack number so possibly a militia or private purchase sea service concoction possibly continental European and not British as the D-guard has more of a pronounced curve than is normal on British swords. Seems to me a decent workmanlike sword.
Regards,
Norman.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Norman McCormick; 21st June 2024 at 03:50 PM.
Norman McCormick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st June 2024, 05:07 PM   #7
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,928
Default

Great observations Norman!!! as always!

Im glad we are in accord on the blade, which seems 18th century European saber form recalling 'montmorency' section of latter part. Well noted on the guard, which does seem German and of the stirrup guard 'Blucher' (M1811) type. The smaller langet and as you note the portapee slot seems more to correspond to later versions of these stirrup hilts which actually were in use in the German army into WWI period, and typically 'lighter'.

With your confirmation of probable German hilt guard, I feel the potential for German East Africa assembly of these components and the wood grip, and likely in colonial period of 1880s + if indeed regionally composed.

The Ethiopian 'gurade' I posted illustrates the propensity toward European influences on native weapons in these dynamic colonial times, where often native forces served as auxiliary to the national military occupying forces.
Often in colonial situations, officers of the occupying military forces also took to specialized swords reflecting local styles joined with regulation components worn as field weapons. These cases prevailed in India where regulation hilts often had Indian or Persian blades and vice versa where many Indian swords had British blades.

These are some of the most fascinating areas of sword collecting with these anomalies being of key historic interest!

Pirate Lady, by your psuedonym, I would note, the regions of Africa which seem suggested include the areas of Comoros Islands and Madagascar where pirate activity prevailed in earlier centuries. Trade activity still active of course, as Norman mentioned, and the guard at least may have come from a maritime weapon with rack number so associated.
All speculative, but of course, fun to imagine.
Attached Images
 
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd June 2024, 12:15 AM   #8
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,172
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norman McCormick View Post
Hi,
... The M1845 French infantry sword has a quill point style blade which is very different from the posters blade. ...
My 1845 quill pointed Frenchy for illustration:
Attached Images
  
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:03 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.