Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Keris Warung Kopi

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 7th May 2009, 12:03 AM   #1
Alam Shah
Member
 
Alam Shah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,248
Default Origin of the Jawa Demam hilt form

Hi all,

These questions had been lingering in my mind for a long time..

Where did the 'Jawa Demam' hilt form come from? What inspired it?
By what other name is it known as? local dialect, etc?
How does it evolved?

Any theory, thoughts, stories, folklore.. etc, are welcomed.

Last edited by Alam Shah; 7th May 2009 at 12:14 AM.
Alam Shah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th May 2009, 03:57 AM   #2
Alam Shah
Member
 
Alam Shah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,248
Default Sumatran

Sumatran styled 'Jawa Demam' hilt variants.
Attached Images
   
Alam Shah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th May 2009, 04:01 AM   #3
Alam Shah
Member
 
Alam Shah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,248
Default

Malay Peninsular styled 'Jawa Demam' hilt variants..
Attached Images
 
Alam Shah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th May 2009, 07:53 PM   #4
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,746
Default

Hello Alam,
I think this will be very difficult to find out from where it come from. But maybe, and this is only a guess from me, it's origin is Cirebon.
You remember this threat:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=tegal

But maybe it will be nice when we can see in this threat many different Jawa Demam hilts. I also have some.
sajen
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th May 2009, 04:22 AM   #5
Alam Shah
Member
 
Alam Shah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,248
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Hello Alam,
I think this will be very difficult to find out from where it come from. But maybe, and this is only a guess from me, it's origin is Cirebon.
You remember this thread:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=tegal

But maybe it will be nice when we can see in this thread many different Jawa Demam hilts. I also have some.
sajen
Ah! yes.. thanks sajen for that thread, there's a pointer there.. bring the hilt pictures on..
Alam Shah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th May 2009, 08:13 AM   #6
rasdan
Member
 
rasdan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Kuala Lumpur
Posts: 368
Default

Probably
Attached Images
 
rasdan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th May 2009, 09:44 AM   #7
Alam Shah
Member
 
Alam Shah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,248
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rasdan
Probably
Diety(?) form with a garuda mungkur on its back, which evolved into its present simplified form..

Thanks Rasdan for the illustrations.
Alam Shah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th May 2009, 11:05 AM   #8
rasdan
Member
 
rasdan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Kuala Lumpur
Posts: 368
Default

Sorry i have to delete the "captions". Its not related to the hilt.
Attached Images
  
rasdan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th May 2009, 05:04 PM   #9
Alam Shah
Member
 
Alam Shah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,248
Default Garuda Mungkur

Hi Rasdan,

I've took the liberty of re-labelling the pic.
Attached Images
 
Alam Shah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th May 2009, 05:16 PM   #10
Alam Shah
Member
 
Alam Shah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,248
Default Garuda Mungkur

2nd pic.
Attached Images
 
Alam Shah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th May 2009, 06:32 PM   #11
rasdan
Member
 
rasdan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Kuala Lumpur
Posts: 368
Default

Cool.. Forgot to write blu's name there. Thanks.

Last edited by rasdan; 8th May 2009 at 10:29 PM. Reason: Additional info
rasdan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th May 2009, 11:49 PM   #12
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,746
Default #1

Here some of my Jawa Demam handles. Please excuse the not best quality of the pictures and the dust.
The first handle is from ivory and my guess is that it is a North Sumatra handle, maybe Gayo.
Attached Images
   
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th May 2009, 12:05 AM   #13
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,746
Default #2

A very old ivory handle with unusual flat head.
Tomorrow I will upload some more.
sajen
Attached Images
   
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th May 2009, 12:43 AM   #14
Alam Shah
Member
 
Alam Shah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,248
Default

Thanks Sajen,
Nice old ivory hilts..
Alam Shah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th May 2009, 02:06 PM   #15
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,746
Default #3

An old ivory ornamental Palembang hilt.
Attached Images
   
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th May 2009, 02:10 PM   #16
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,746
Default #4

A big ivory hilt with a hole in the head, maybe for a jimat stone.
Attached Images
   
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th May 2009, 02:14 PM   #17
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,746
Default #5

A wooden hilt from the nort cost from Sumatra with metal nose and eyes.
Attached Images
   
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th May 2009, 02:21 PM   #18
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,746
Default #6

A molar hilt from Minangkabau I show in this threat:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8761
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th May 2009, 02:35 PM   #19
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,746
Default #7

An ivory Pattani hilt from hippotamus tooth.
sajen
Attached Images
   
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th May 2009, 05:56 PM   #20
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,107
Default

Hi Sajen. Thanks for the examples (and everyone else as well ) I have an ivory one that is sort of similar to yours so i made some quick shots for comparison.
Attached Images
    
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th May 2009, 11:41 AM   #21
Alam Shah
Member
 
Alam Shah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,248
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
I have an ivory one that is sort of similar to yours so i made some quick shots for comparison.
Beautiful piece, it would be nice to see the blade, though. Looks like a malela or carita blade.
Alam Shah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th May 2009, 12:11 PM   #22
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,746
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Hi Sajen. Thanks for the examples (and everyone else as well ) I have an ivory one that is sort of similar to yours so i made some quick shots for comparison.
Yes, agree with Alam, beautiful handle. Is it also from Hippo? Will be nice to see the complete keris.
sajen
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th May 2009, 02:49 PM   #23
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,107
Default

Thanks for the comments guys. I would rather not side track this conversation with blades. Let's keep the discussion focussed on hilt forms.
Sajen, i must admit that i just don't know the ivory source.I can usually recognize marine ivory, but i am afraid that distinguishing between hippo and elephant is not something i am very good at. I was going to ask you how you knew yours was hippo.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th May 2009, 08:11 AM   #24
jonng
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 41
Default

Interesting topic Shahrial, and I would like to know more too. Who coined the term "Jawa Demam" and when was it first used? Does "Jawa Demam" really refer to a sick Javanese?
These hilts sure look like some powerful all knowing ancestral squatting figures/ heroes/ gods to me rather than a sick Javanese down with the cold/ flu. The explanation that the hands are wrapped around the legs/ body because he is shivering because of his fever is rather mischievous. Could the Javanese have coined this term to mock their old rivals kerises in the past? if so, why did the people in the malay peninsular accept such a derogatory term for their hilts? Were they trying to distance themselves from their past beliefs?
jonng is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th May 2009, 02:13 PM   #25
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,107
Default

Good line of questioning Jonng. I have always been told that the name refers to the posture of the abstract figure. One arm goes across the belly and the figure is bent over as if sick to his stomach. But i suppose this jester could just as easily be a bow.
I am not convinced that the Jawa Demam is related to the squatting figures. The body positions appear quite different to me. In the squatting figures the hands are generally on the knees and they are, of course, squatting which i don't believe is the intended body position of the Jawa Demam.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th May 2009, 02:42 PM   #26
BluErf
Member
 
BluErf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,180
Default

I'm not sure if we will ever get satisfactory answers to this question.

Anyway, here's a hilt I got off ebay a while back. Very interesting form. Dave has a specimen which may even predate this, but I can't find pics. Maybe it is in Spirit of Wood.
Attached Images
  
BluErf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th May 2009, 05:07 PM   #27
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,746
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Sajen, i must admit that i just don't know the ivory source.I can usually recognize marine ivory, but i am afraid that distinguishing between hippo and elephant is not something i am very good at. I was going to ask you how you knew yours was hippo.

When you look to the first pic of my handle you see on the left side of his back a line of black dots, this you only can see by hippo ivory.
sajen
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th May 2009, 05:20 PM   #28
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,746
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BluErf
I'm not sure if we will ever get satisfactory answers to this question.

Anyway, here's a hilt I got off ebay a while back. Very interesting form. Dave has a specimen which may even predate this, but I can't find pics. Maybe it is in Spirit of Wood.

Very interesting handle, the hands rest on the knees. Never seen before by a Jawa Demam.
M. Kerner write in his book "Keris-Griffe aus Museen und Privatsammlungen" about basic position I and basic position II. Position II is when the figure crossed the arms over the breast like the Jawa Demam and position I when the hands rest on the knees like the Cirebon handles and he guess that the position I is the more old form.
sajen
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th May 2009, 05:40 PM   #29
jonng
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 41
Default

Hi David,

That the gesture is a bow is I think probable (and could have evolved later?). That the "arm goes across the belly and the figure is bent over as if sick to the stomach" is to me a bit difficult to accept because I cannot see any in my collection or those that have been put up here having the arm going across the stomach. All of them seems to have the right arm going across the chest (or do I see them wrong?!).
Have the carvers made some mistakes in their carving or interpretation some time in the past? If not, regarding posture I often see these two:
1. squatting or sitting on something (very low) with both knees up, right elbow slightly over or resting on the right knee.
2. semi-kneeling/ half squat position, right knee up with the right elbow resting on it and left knee on the ground.
The right arm looks to be above the stomach in all these forms. Of course I could have seen them all wrong so I'm really grateful this thread came up.

Jonathan
jonng is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th May 2009, 06:51 PM   #30
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 8,746
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonng
Hi David,

That the gesture is a bow is I think probable (and could have evolved later?). That the "arm goes across the belly and the figure is bent over as if sick to the stomach" is to me a bit difficult to accept because I cannot see any in my collection or those that have been put up here having the arm going across the stomach. All of them seems to have the right arm going across the chest (or do I see them wrong?!).
Have the carvers made some mistakes in their carving or interpretation some time in the past? If not, regarding posture I often see these two:
1. squatting or sitting on something (very low) with both knees up, right elbow slightly over or resting on the right knee.
2. semi-kneeling/ half squat position, right knee up with the right elbow resting on it and left knee on the ground.
The right arm looks to be above the stomach in all these forms. Of course I could have seen them all wrong so I'm really grateful this thread came up.

Jonathan

Hello Jonathan,

from the same book is this reduced drawing of this position. So the left knee is not on the ground. The leg is more or less straight. When you see the handles from the North-East coast of Java it is correct.
sajen
Attached Images
 
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:11 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.