Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   interesting Persian item (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=26923)

mahratt 1st May 2021 08:03 PM

interesting Persian item
 
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Hello guys!
Does anyone know how this Persian item was used?

Rick 1st May 2021 10:35 PM

A fancy steel for striking flint perhaps?

mahratt 2nd May 2021 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick (Post 262160)
A fancy steel for striking flint perhaps?

I thought about it ... But in my opinion too graceful ...

colin henshaw 2nd May 2021 09:02 PM

Sort of looks like the trigger to an Indian matchlock gun (torador) ?

mahratt 2nd May 2021 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin henshaw (Post 262201)
Sort of looks like the trigger to an Indian matchlock gun (torador) ?

An interesting version. But I have never seen a Persian matchlock gun or Indian matchlock gun (torador) with such a trigger.
This is undoubtedly a Persian work

ariel 3rd May 2021 07:06 AM

I may join Rick here: that was the first thing to come to my mind. On top of everything, the configuration fits.
Fancy or not, graceful or not, it will do the job. All things come in a variety of embellishments that do not change their function. A crystal snifter and a ceramic cup differ dramatically, but both are drinking vessels. Closer to home are sword handles: different forms, materials and ways of attaching them to the tang ( and I am not talking about gems, carvings or lack thereof), but they are all just a grip.
My 5 cents. Well, more like two...

kronckew 3rd May 2021 09:33 AM

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Hook for attaching a sword frog or belt pouch to a loop on a belt? What are it's dimensions?

mahratt 3rd May 2021 10:26 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew (Post 262215)
Hook for attaching a sword frog or belt pouch to a loop on a belt? What are it's dimensions?

Here is the size

ariel 3rd May 2021 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew (Post 262215)
Hook for attaching a sword frog or belt pouch to a loop on a belt?

Oriental suspension hooks had a flat part with a wide opening for the belt and with a plane perpendicular to the plane of the hook.
I see no possible way of attaching the pierced part to the belt.
I just cannot come up with any usable function for this thingamajig except for being a fire striker. Perhaps my “ fantasy center” is atrophic:-(
And, BTW, NW India adopted open ( pierced) iron work from both Persia and South India.
The Indian origin of that gizmo cannot be excluded, IMHO.

kronckew 3rd May 2021 11:47 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel (Post 262220)
Oriental suspension hooks had a flat part with a wide opening for the belt and with a plane perpendicular to the plane of the hook.
I see no possible way to attach the pierced part to the belt.
I just cannot come up with any usable function for this thingamajig except for being a fire striker. Perhaps my “ fantasy center” is atrophic:-(
And, BTW, NW India adopted open ( pierced) iron work from both Persia and South India.
The Indian origin of that gizmo cannot be excluded, IMHO.

Did you look at the picture of a rapier frog? It hooks into a belt fitting with an eye in it that accepts the hook and swivels to let the hook lie flat to the body. on mine, the eye is fixed and the hook swivels to lie flat.


Pierced iron work also occurs elsewhere, as in this European small sword/court sword belt clip. This one clips over a belt instead of using a sliding or in-line fitting, much like the clip patented by Gen. 'Jeb' Stuart for his sabre, and used by both the USA and CSA. Jeb's & the Smallwood one Hook reminds me of one I use on a Chinese Mia Dao sword...on the right

ariel 3rd May 2021 06:28 PM

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Interesting. "Jeb" Stuart's hanging hook differs a bit from the oriental examples. Something like that was in use from Zaporozhian Cossacks to India.
Much better mechanics.

ariel 3rd May 2021 06:39 PM

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And here are fire strikers. One grasps one branch and strikes with the other. There were multiple other forms, but the principle remained the same. Some are dirt simple, some are very artistic.

ariel 4th May 2021 04:58 AM

To summarize :
Sword hanger hooks were built in two separate planes, mostly perpendicular to each other. The “Jeb” Stuart’s one is an exception and requires chains because of that.
Fire strikers were built as a single plane.

Oliver Pinchot 4th May 2021 05:31 AM

I'm with Ariel. It is certainly a flint striker.

Gustav 4th May 2021 11:48 AM

Just information regarding the item in #11.
That's actually a typical Javanese reins holder.

kronckew 4th May 2021 02:30 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel (Post 262239)
Interesting. "Jeb" Stuart's hanging hook differs a bit from the oriental examples. Something like that was in use from Zaporozhian Cossacks to India.
Much better mechanics.


The Jeb Stuart one can be fitted with an optional hook like your cossack one. Many US & UK sword belts come with a hook either on a belt slider like the cossack one (I've seen similar from china, in bronze or even jade.) My Jeb is illustrated below. It allows the straps to hang in the correct plane.


It's for hooking the sabre's upper scabbard ring when you are on foot, or unhooking to let the scabbard hang on it's leather straps when on horse. It is NOT for hanging the straps. My US style Naval sword belt has a built-in hook where the sword scabbard ring sits.it also has the short leather strap attached to the top scabbard ring via a snap swivel hook, and a loop at the other end to slip over the belt itself, and the longer strap attaches to the lower scabbard ring via a swivel snap hook. See below, under the Jeb one. The USCG stopped riding horses after WW2, but kept the sword belt arrangement justincase.


An interestin video on how to wear your scabbard, with the sword in it of course:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHLh3VQGrHI
It shows a variety of fitting-less as well as straps with fittings thru the ages.


Anyway, a moot point if it is indeed an Indonesian harness fitting ;)

Gustav 4th May 2021 02:37 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew (Post 262265)

Anyway, a moot point if it is indeed an Indonesian harness fitting ;)

https://www.roots.gov.sg/Collection-...isting/1039944

kronckew 4th May 2021 03:11 PM

Aha! So, the earlier Cossack one, as I suspected, was not for hooking your sword scabbard to, like the US/UK belt fitting is.


So the Original poster's thingamy is still a wotsit. :)

Gustav 4th May 2021 08:18 PM

These Javanese reins holders even did made their appearance here a time ago.
(Indeed not so much to do with Cossacks and sword scabbard hooking.)

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=18838

RSWORD 7th May 2021 02:03 PM

The book "Persian Steel, The Tanavoli Collection" if I recall has some similar examples. If memory serves me they are also identified as a flint striker.

ariel 7th May 2021 03:26 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav (Post 262256)
Just information regarding the item in #11.
That's actually a typical Javanese reins holder.

Many things came to Indonesia from India and other counrties: Piso Podang pommel, Gulabhati handle, Borobudur, and, yes, even Hinduism, Buddhism and Islam.
It is certainly possible that these hooks might have been used as rein holders in Indonesia: they will work.
But as a rule, reins were held in place simply by putting them over the saddle pommel. This may be one of the reasons why Islamic saddles had tall pommels.
Here are Central Asian, Turkish and Afghani saddles.

But going back to the original thingamajig, it simply could not work as a sword or reins holder: engineering would not allow for it.

ariel 7th May 2021 04:11 PM

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And here is a Ukrainian ( Turkish style) one.

Interested Party 7th May 2021 07:02 PM

My immediate impression when I saw the picture was a striker. After reading this thread I still think so, but with less conviction after seeing other possible uses. Could we see the aspect that is facing away in post #8? That would be the area of contact IMHO. I like that it would seem to direct the flint away from the knuckles.

Gustav 8th May 2021 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel (Post 262359)
Many things came to Indonesia from India and other counrties: Piso Podang pommel, Gulabhati handle, Borobudur, and, yes, even Hinduism, Buddhism and Islam.
It is certainly possible that these hooks might have been used as rein holders in Indonesia: they will work.
But as a rule, reins were held in place simply by putting them over the saddle pommel. This may be one of the reasons why Islamic saddles had tall pommels.
Here are Central Asian, Turkish and Afghani saddles.

But going back to the original thingamajig, it simply could not work as a sword or reins holder: engineering would not allow for it.

Ariel, no doubts about that all.
Just - the particular item shown in #11 has nothing to do with Cossacks, India, and the region between them. It comes from specific region and had specific purpose, which has nothing to do with the purpose you described to it.

ariel 9th May 2021 06:35 PM

You are correct: Alan’s example has nothing to do with Cossacks, India etc.
However, engineeringly it is a carbon copy of an item in post #22, that belonged to Zaporozhian ( Ukrainian) cossacks that they in turn copied from Turkish examples.
The Indonesians just did not need a belt hook hanger: they carried their weapons either tucked under the belt or hung on a baldrick over the shoulder. I am unaware of Javanese weapons with suspension fittings and rings on the scabbards.

Most likely they just took an item from some foreigners and used it for their own purpose.

A. G. Maisey 9th May 2021 11:34 PM

Not quite so Ariel.

There is a dress style that employs a cloth frog to hold the scabbard of a keris, it it usually worn at the front, mostly employed by Central Javanese courtiers.

I can think of no instances where a keris, or other weapon, was carried with a baldrick. Balinese nobles when they wore their sarung high, up pretty much to the armpits, would carry the keris tucked into the top of the sarung, which when worn high is not worn with a setagen (sash) nor sabuk(belt).

Some pedangs do have suspension rings on the scabbards, many have hooks on the scabbard that were used both as a belt hook, and as a hook to retain a frog.

The reins hook (bankol), might well have originated from a Turkish item, historically there was a strong connection between the court of Central Jawa and Turkey, however, the ones I've shown are most certainly Javanese in style and seemingly effective in the way that are employed. Back in the 1980's I saw a demonstration of Javanese horsemanship where the rider used a bankol, and it worked very well.

ariel 9th May 2021 11:51 PM

Alan,
Thanks for the information. Have you also seen bankols used as sword hanging hooks as well?

But in any case, the original thingamajig does not resemble a bankol or its Turkish predecessor.

A. G. Maisey 10th May 2021 04:31 AM

No Ariel, bankol have a specified use, they are exceptionally rare, invariably high priced and nobody in Central Jawa would even dream of using one as a suport for any type of weapon.

You're dead right, the thing that began this conversation is nothing at all like a bankol.

ariel 10th May 2021 09:29 AM

Thanks.
And the item in question does not resemble a Turkish ( Indian etc) sword hanging hook as well.
We are back to the simple and obvious: it is a moderately fancy fire striker. Any alternative explanations?

colin henshaw 10th May 2021 03:13 PM

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My guess is its a trigger from a torador, with the steel extension part re-purposed to make a fire-striker.


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