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-   -   Help on what I just bought.... (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=26328)

blindside 23rd September 2020 10:02 AM

Help on what I just bought....
 
6 Attachment(s)
I just received this off an ebay auction which I somewhat accidentally won (there is a lesson here about not attempting to throw in a last second low bid while operating a tractor) and I really don't have a clue what it is. My main interest is Filipino blades and while this sort of reminds me of that region it has a lot of odd elements.

The auction listed it as "Antique Persian Russian Caucasian Snake Guard Sword Blade Weapon," as completely not helpful as that is. At this point if anyone has any suggestions on what it is I would appreciate it. Thanks!

Overall length: 28.5 inches / 72.4cm
handle: 5in / 10.2cm
blade 23.5in / 59.7cm
weight 21oz / 595g

Ian 23rd September 2020 11:47 AM

Aha! You ended up with it! I was watching but did not bid on it.

Very unusual piece. The blade reminds me somewhat, in shape at least, of a Chassepot bayonet or one of its variants. From what I can see in these pics, it is not a Chassepot but looks like one. I can't make up my mind whether the hilt is wooden or horn. The pommel looks like a horse hoof, but there is a ring protruding from the end also. And the D-guard ... :shrug:

I hope somebody here has seen similar before.

Conduit 23rd September 2020 12:48 PM

Hilt is wood.
Mostly likely a homemade hunting dagger judging by the shape of hilt and quillon and lack of the maker mark.

Duccio 23rd September 2020 01:28 PM

Hello,
the blade actually has the shape of a bayonet "yataghan type", as was that of the chassepot, but the section of the blade was definitely different. Moreover, there were many bayonet models with that shape, in the mid-nineteenth century, and even the dimensions seem more those of a bayonet than that of a cavalry saber. To the eye the hilt really (made of horn?) has the shape of a horse's leg, complete with horseshoe, but it doesn't look like a standard military workmanship ... could it be a custom job for the recovery of a bayonet blade?
Very curious object, indeed!
And anyway, since it was a random offer, it could have been much worse ...

Conduit 23rd September 2020 02:27 PM

This blade has not been recovered from an yatagan bladed bayonet. All military issued yatagan bayonets have fullered blades.

blindside 23rd September 2020 03:27 PM

Thank you all, the hilt is horn.

Interested Party 23rd September 2020 05:13 PM

I hoped this would show up on the site. It looked like a converted bayonet but as mentioned before the cross section was wrong. Then there the snake motif to make matters more confusing. Then I thought possibly a pedang lurus for a second and finally a hunting sword. It confused me to the point I tried to grab it just to take a look at the metal for a bit of an answer but the price jumped at the last second. I was blindsided. Good job!

What can you see as far as the structure of the steel and construction methods?

Is the tang peened or threaded?

blindside 24th September 2020 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Interested Party
I hoped this would show up on the site. It looked like a converted bayonet but as mentioned before the cross section was wrong. Then there the snake motif to make matters more confusing. Then I thought possibly a pedang lurus for a second and finally a hunting sword. It confused me to the point I tried to grab it just to take a look at the metal for a bit of an answer but the price jumped at the last second. I was blindsided. Good job!

What can you see as far as the structure of the steel and construction methods?

Is the tang peened or threaded?

The tang is threaded, that metal loop is the threaded to hold the guard in place. I have not tried to fully disassemble the hilt.

The guard and decorative elements are non-magnetic but feel heavier than tin, maybe a white brass?

The metal of the blade doesn't appear to be notable.

Rick 24th September 2020 02:58 AM

Would the slot at the base of the knucklebow be intended for the attachment of a sword knot? Is that niello on the ring at the hoof? Would the three holes on the horseshoe be intended for decorative nails perhaps?

blindside 24th September 2020 03:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick
Would the slot at the base of the knucklebow be intended for the attachment of a sword knot? Is that niello on the ring at the hoof? Would the three holes on the horseshoe be intended for decorative nails perhaps?

The four holes in the horseshoe have two remnants of nails going into the pommel and there is a hole where the third should go but that isn't visible under the D-guard. The fourth (top) is the remnants of a similar hole is visible where the horn has broken off.

I don't know if that is niello on the ring, it does appear slightly different than the pommel but I can't tell if that is just due to wear.

Rick 24th September 2020 04:09 AM

Looking closer, I don't think the ring is niello it's engraved. The horse hoof pommel is reminiscent of Filipino motifs. The blade has a T spine from what I can see. I don't recall T spine Filipino blades; but I'm old and memory fails me sometimes. :o The engraving doesn't look like typical Filipino work.. :confused:
The threaded loop is also incongruous.
Puzzling but very attractive nonetheless. :)

blindside 24th September 2020 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick
Looking closer, I don't think the ring is niello it's engraved. The horse hoof pommel is reminiscent of Filipino motifs. The blade has a T spine from what I can see. I don't recall T spine Filipino blades; but I'm old and memory fails me sometimes. :o

It does not have a T spine, there is a bevel along the top that forms an unsharpened false edge.

kronckew 24th September 2020 08:53 AM

1 Attachment(s)
The slots in the front of the guard plate look more like decorative piercings, but could be used for a sword knot or even a finger loop. The looped pommel nut looks like it was for a sword knot (lanyard) lanyard or a decorative tassel. Cool sword anyway. How long is the blade? most yat bayonets are pretty much all the 'standard' length.

(My guess is also Philippines.)

My horn handled 'hunter' has an French 1866 yat bayonet blade of 57 cm. (22.4 in.) & fits a spare frenchy scabbard perfectly. The blade is also completely different, (fullered, etc.) than the subject blade of the OP's weapon.

kronckew 24th September 2020 09:10 AM

1 Attachment(s)
p.s. - they also come in unfullered double edged flat diamond x-section. :D

Interested Party 24th September 2020 04:42 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick
Looking closer, I don't think the ring is niello it's engraved. The horse hoof pommel is reminiscent of Filipino motifs. The blade has a T spine from what I can see. I don't recall T spine Filipino blades; but I'm old and memory fails me sometimes. :o The engraving doesn't look like typical Filipino work.. :confused:
The threaded loop is also incongruous.
Puzzling but very attractive nonetheless. :)

This was a sellers picture. Hopefully it is ok to post. Different light, different angle. Note the traces of blue on the D guard. It is on both sides. Verdigris, paint, or enamel? Sorry for bugging you blindside but this perplexed me and one rarely gets a chance for answers about images on the internet.

Tim Simmons 24th September 2020 05:19 PM

Could the guard and grip furniture actually be silver? Looks like a one off 19th century hunting hanger. As said not military construction, but I would say it is of western construction and not done in a shed if you know what I mean. The style of it reminds me of the sort of 19th century trinkets like ink wells made out of horse hoofs and that sort of thing very popular with the posh hunting set around the 19th and very early 20th century. As mentioned the blade form is also very common to the time.

David 24th September 2020 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Interested Party
This was a sellers picture. Hopefully it is ok to post. Different light, different angle. Note the traces of blue on the D guard. It is on both sides. Verdigris, paint, or enamel? Sorry for bugging you blindside but this perplexed me and one rarely gets a chance for answers about images on the internet.

You are correct to note "different light", but perhaps even more importantly, different white balance. Or perhaps more importantly, incorrect whit balance as i am fairly certain the background of this photo is supposed to be white. So give the very incorrect white balance i am not sure what you are looking at in this photo is really blue. ;)

Interested Party 25th September 2020 07:32 AM

Interesting. The seller lightened the photos?

blindside 25th September 2020 08:39 AM

5 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons
Could the guard and grip furniture actually be silver? Looks like a one off 19th century hunting hanger. As said not military construction, but I would say it is of western construction and not done in a shed if you know what I mean. The style of it reminds me of the sort of 19th century trinkets like ink wells made out of horse hoofs and that sort of thing very popular with the posh hunting set around the 19th and very early 20th century. As mentioned the blade form is also very common to the time.

So after taking a close look at it I decided to hit it with a gentle silver polish and I am now about 90% convinced it is silver. Images are heavily contrasted to make the designs stand out.

Tim Simmons 25th September 2020 03:13 PM

A goodly amount of silver too, compered to most sea stuff :cool:

carlos 25th September 2020 03:16 PM

I saw this auction but finally I didn t bid. Seems a good piece, but I couldn,t identify a filipino piece.
Thanks for sharing
Carlos

Duccio 3rd October 2020 02:51 PM

3 Attachment(s)
Health to all,
maybe it has nothing to do with it, but I couldn't help but notice an extraordinary similarity between these dagger canes put up for auction and the sword mentioned in these posts.
The angle formed by the horse's foot is different, but the horseshoe is there ... is it a "blade change"?

Duccio

Tim Simmons 3rd October 2020 04:09 PM

Cool very much in the same taste for posh hunting types.

blindside 6th October 2020 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duccio
Health to all,
maybe it has nothing to do with it, but I couldn't help but notice an extraordinary similarity between these dagger canes put up for auction and the sword mentioned in these posts.
The angle formed by the horse's foot is different, but the horseshoe is there ... is it a "blade change"?

Duccio

Any background on these pieces? I do admit the style is similar.

Duccio 6th October 2020 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blindside
Any background on these pieces? I do admit the style is similar.

Very vague description, auction-style ...
"Two horse hoof-form dagger canes Various dates mid to late 19th century Comprising a horn and bamboo dagger cane, the carved horn handle in the form of a horse hoof with steel-cut bead nails, the 13-inch Solingen-style steel blade unsheathed by release button at collar, with modern rubber ferrule; and a horn and spotted bamboo dagger cane, the carved horn handle in the form of a horse hoof with tortoiseshell horseshoe and steel-cut bead nails, the 12-inch steel blade unsheathed by release button at white metal filigree collar, modern rubber ferrule over original horn ferrule. (2).L 36 in. (longest) PROVENANCE: The collection of award-winning independent film director Larry Clark, New York."

we ask Larry?

blindside 19th February 2021 12:48 PM

2 Attachment(s)
As a bit of an update, today a modern Filipino maker publicized pictures of his reproduction matulis. It certainly shares many of the characteristics of my blade. I am trying to find if he based his reproduction on any particular piece. The maker is Illocano Traditional Blades. https://www.facebook.com/ar.cie.167

So mystery largely solved! :D

David R 19th February 2021 01:08 PM

I think you are to be congratulated, taking a punt and winning indeed.

blindside 19th February 2021 11:17 PM

Ilocano Traditional Blades said this about his sword:

this blade sir is a rice-leaf blade shape that we called it BULONG PAGAY in ilocano. This blade sir is used among katipunan bolos to cut or used for fighting to their enemies and the handle is inspired by the horse hoof. The origin of this blade sir is from northern Luzon

xasterix 21st February 2021 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blindside
Ilocano Traditional Blades said this about his sword:

this blade sir is a rice-leaf blade shape that we called it BULONG PAGAY in ilocano. This blade sir is used among katipunan bolos to cut or used for fighting to their enemies and the handle is inspired by the horse hoof. The origin of this blade sir is from northern Luzon

Sorry to burst the bubble, blindside. The ILT proprietor is a friend of mine...but he has very limited traditional blade knowledge. The blade that you posted actually isn't endemic to the Ilocanos...it has a backstory.

Several years back, the governor of Ilocos saw the Ars Cives Macau Exhibition, wherein several PH swords were exhibited and erroneously labeled as Ilocos- when actually they came from other Luzon areas such as Batangas and Cavite. Inspired by what he thought of as Ilocos swords, that governor had the ILT guys make reproductions of what he thought were Ilocos-provenanced blades.

The rest...is history. I've told ILT the facts, but of course it won't do well with marketing, and they're hesitant to back out of designs which they were told were originally Ilocano.

I'm of half Ilocano lineage myself, but in this matter, I believe things must be straightened out, in deference to the other Luzon pandays.

As for your blade...I don't really know where it is from. A lot of friends have debated over it, and their consensus is that it's not of PH provenance due to certain construction indicators.

Battara 21st February 2021 08:31 PM

I was going to say that the blade and the cap mounts look odd to me for Ilokos. Thanks for clarifying this confirmation.


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