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Old 21st September 2015, 09:08 PM   #31
Ibrahiim al Balooshi
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Default The Sultan of Adal (right) and his troops battling King Yagbea-Sion and his men.

Here is an interesting Abysinian picture portrayal......For the full script see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adal_Sultanate Note the footsoldiers bottom right wearing the simple cloth around their heads...still worn today in Arabia...

It is interesting to note that Quote" In the 16th century, Adal organised an effective army led by Imam Ahmad ibn Ibrahim al-Ghazi that invaded the Abyssinian empire. This campaign is historically known as the Conquest of Abyssinia or Futuh al Habash.

During the war, Ahmed pioneered the use of cannons supplied by the Ottoman Empire, which were deployed against Solomonic forces and their Portuguese allies led by Cristóvão da Gama.

Some scholars argue that this conflict proved, through their use on both sides, the value of firearms such as the matchlock musket, cannons and the arquebus over traditional weapons.
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Old 21st September 2015, 09:26 PM   #32
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and in and around The Battle of Omdurman~plus some addition to the shield style...
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Old 21st September 2015, 10:17 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Here is an interesting Abysinian picture portrayal......


The Sultan of Adal (right) and his troops battling King Yagbea-Sion and his men. From Le Livre des Merveilles, 15th century.

The Adal Sultanate or Kingdom of Adal was a medieval Muslim Somali state located in the Horn of Africa. It flourished from around 1415 to 1577. At its height it controlled large parts of modern-day Somalia, Ethiopia, Djibouti and Eritrea.
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Old 21st September 2015, 10:38 PM   #34
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This is an astonishing picture displaying the Woven Armour of African cavalry Please see http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bullet-Proo...h/dp/B004LS2ZGE where the actual newspaper report can be magnified on Ancient quilted armour...
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Old 21st September 2015, 11:19 PM   #35
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If you google Benin warrior you will get hundreds of medieval bronzes depicting warriors in all sorts of body armor.
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Old 21st September 2015, 11:28 PM   #36
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these are some of the re-creations I did.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 04:58 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
I would note these English helmets are not like those pictured here in the thread with the arrow nasal and star in disc etc. Those as well as the cuirass are as noted apparently French. The French had been notably present in Khedival Egypt so this is not surprising.

It does seem these type helmets of the 'French' cuirassier type actually predate the c. 1844 date often assigned to them, and are noted in drawings slightly earlier. They are seen in illustrations of Khedival bodyguard cuirassiers in the Crimea in 1854.

Apparently by the 1880s there had been some deviation in degree or perhaps incidental license by an artist, as in the French " Le Drapeau" (July,1882) two members of the Khedives bodyguards are seen wearing mail rather than the cuirass.
Another case in Illustrated London News (1882) there are two Circassian irregulars listed as Khedival bodyguards.


Jim, there are still some unanswered mysteries concerning the use of armor in Khedival Egypt.

From what I can glean from mutiple conflicting sources, mail hauberks and steel French helmets with a cresent on top and a sliding nasel were used from sometime after 1824 to the late 1830s or 1840. It is unclear if the hauberks were produced using the split link key chain mail from England as were the later made mail hauberks but were else would they have purchased brand new matching mail armor at that time. Since the split link key chain was first made by machine in 1924 we can assume that the first Khedival mail hauberks were made sometime after 1824.

Sometime around the late 1830s to 1840 steel French cuirass were introduced, they were paired with a helmet that was either the same or very similar to the earlier steel French helmets with the cresent on top and the sliding nasel.

The mail hauberk was not retired, there is at least one instance reported of Khedival troops (Nubians) being seen parading in mail hauberks around 1854.

I have no firm information on when the steel French cuirass and steel French helmet with the cresent on top and the sliding nasel was last used. I have not seen any reports that they were used during the Sudanese war, but they are said to have been used during the Crimean war (1855 to 1856).

Sometime around 1880, several hundred (600 to 800) split link key chain mail hauberks and steel bowl shaped helmets with split link key chain mail neck guards and sliding nasel and mail gauntlets were ordered from England, some sources say that at least part of the order came from Wilkinson Sword. These armors were said to have been used by some Khedival troops during the doomed Hicks expedition, one report says that one hundred mounted troops wearing these mail hauberks were with the Hicks expedition.

There are apparently a few other types of armor used in Khedival Egypt, one print shows a very French looking helmet and steel cuirass being worn by two Egyptian mounted troops, these is one photo showing a few similar armors hanging on the wall of an Egyptian museum.

One other strange looking steel bowl helmet with no sliding nasel has turned up as well, there are a couple of photos of it.

I have posted a few photos, due to the forums lack of inline image attachments they will probably not be in order, you will have to figure them out.

I have put three figures together showing the stages of Khedival armor, on the left is the older mail hauberk with the French helmet, in the middle is the French helmet with the French cuirass, on the right is the later made English helmet and mail hauberk. Also shown is a photo of the unusual brass helmet and cuirass and a detail from the print showing similar armor. Two photos of the unusual bowl shaped helmet.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 07:29 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by estcrh
Jim, there are still some unanswered mysteries concerning the use of armor in Khedival Egypt.

From what I can glean from mutiple conflicting sources, mail hauberks and steel French helmets with a cresent on top and a sliding nasel were used from sometime after 1824 to the late 1830s or 1840. It is unclear if the hauberks were produced using the split link key chain mail from England as were the later made mail hauberks but were else would they have purchased brand new matching mail armor at that time. Since the split link key chain was first made by machine in 1924 we can assume that the first Khedival mail hauberks were made sometime after 1824.

Sometime around the late 1830s to 1840 steel French cuirass were introduced, they were paired with a helmet that was either the same or very similar to the earlier steel French helmets with the cresent on top and the sliding nasel.

The mail hauberk was not retired, there is at least one instance reported of Khedival troops (Nubians) being seen parading in mail hauberks around 1854.

I have no firm information on when the steel French cuirass and steel French helmet with the cresent on top and the sliding nasel was last used. I have not seen any reports that they were used during the Sudanese war, but they are said to have been used during the Crimean war (1855 to 1856).

Sometime around 1880, several hundred (600 to 800) split link key chain mail hauberks and steel bowl shaped helmets with split link key chain mail neck guards and sliding nasel and mail gauntlets were ordered from England, some sources say that at least part of the order came from Wilkinson Sword. These armors were said to have been used by some Khedival troops during the doomed Hicks expedition, one report says that one hundred mounted troops wearing these mail hauberks were with the Hicks expedition.

There are apparently a few other types of armor used in Khedival Egypt, one print shows a very French looking helmet and steel cuirass being worn by two Egyptian mounted troops, these is one photo showing a few similar armors hanging on the wall of an Egyptian museum.

One other strange looking steel bowl helmet with no sliding nasel has turned up as well, there are a couple of photos of it.

I have posted a few photos, due to the forums lack of inline image attachments they will probably not be in order, you will have to figure them out.

I have put three figures together showing the stages of Khedival armor, on the left is the older mail hauberk with the French helmet, in the middle is the French helmet with the French cuirass, on the right is the later made English helmet and mail hauberk. Also shown is a photo of the unusual brass helmet and cuirass and a detail from the print showing similar armor. Two photos of the unusual bowl shaped helmet.



Taking the question of English produced armour...It appears so...

From Wikipedia I Quote" During the late 19th and early 20th century mail was used as a material for bulletproof vests, most notably by the Wilkinson Sword Company. Results were unsatisfactory; Wilkinson mail worn by the Khedive of Egypt's regiment of "Iron Men" was manufactured from split rings which proved to be too brittle, and the rings would fragment when struck by bullets and aggravate the damage. The riveted mail armour worn by the opposing Sudanese Madhists did not have the same problem but also proved to be relatively useless against the firearms of British forces at the battle of Omdurman. During World War I Wilkinson Sword transitioned from mail to a lamellar design which was the precursor to the flak jacket.Unquote.

In effect this is what the Hicks Iron Men were equipped with and may be viewed at http://www.ottoman-uniforms.com/egy...xpedition-1883/ from which I have extracted the following ~Quote.
Hicks Expedition (1883): Khedive's Zirkhagi - the "Iron Men" or Cuirassiers
Pre-WW1 Wilkinson's chainmail vest.
1856-1882 Mounted Palace Guard.

Below - This 1882 illustration, shows a helmet used by the Khedive's Zirkhagi: Iron Men (Cuirassiers) much like the UK made ones :
Deeply-domed helmets (similar to one on display in the National Army Museum, UK pictured below) With separately-applied brow plate;
Adjustable nasal.
Only the small spike ball-finial is missing.

​Khedive's Zirkhagi, the "Iron Men" or Cuirassiers (they were now part of the Khedival Guard). Armed with sabres and pistols, these wore chain-mail armour and metal helmets with nose-guards” .

An illustration from The Graphic (c.1883) ‘Egyptian Cuirassier’. This particular illustration was extracted from a larger grouping of 1883 Hick's Expedition soldiers, seen in The Graphic (24 November, 1883): 516.
This 1883 illustration, shows three key parts to the "Iron Men" equipment:
Helmet much like the UK made ones.

Wilkinson Sword Company coat of mail .
In particular, his right rein-hand is protected by a mail gauntlet - 1860 Wilkinson Sword Co. "Gauntlets").
The right rein-hand gauntlet is completely covered in mail.
Whereas, the left (sword) hand gauntlet is only partially covered in mail, leaving the leather hand portion, which would be protected by the basket-hilt of his sword - which is a standard French Army heavy cavalry sword, dating from the Napoleonic period, as these were sold in large quantities to the Egyptian and Turkish Armies.
----------------------------------
According to 'Khedive Ismail's Army', by John P. Dunn (2013) - “One squadron maintained a different organisation.

(a) 1860 Wilkinson Sword Co. "Coats of Steel Chainmail".
These were the 'Split link mail hauberk', made in England for export.
These mail shirts used by the forces of the Khedive of Egypt in the 1800s until they were replaced with a French made steel cuirass around 1840.
In the 1880s, the Khedive Tewfik ordered from a Birmingham firm 600 hauberks made of split rings for the Egyptian army under Colonel Hicks, and are said to have 'proved worse than useless'.

(b) 1860 Wilkinson Sword Co. "Gauntlets".
As has been observed in the illustration from The Graphic (c.1883) ‘Egyptian Cuirassier’ (above), the Wilkinson Sword Company's gauntlets were designed as a distinctly left, and right handed pairs:
The right rein-hand gauntlet is completely covered in mail.
Whereas, the left (sword) hand gauntlet is only partially covered in mail, leaving the leather hand portion, which would be protected by the basket-hilt of his sword - which is a standard French Army heavy cavalry sword, dating from the Napoleonic period, as these were sold in large quantities to the Egyptian and Turkish Armies.

(c) "Iron Men" helmet (Wilkinson's Sword-Proof Helmet).
Birmingham, UK Helmets Supplied to the Khedive of Egypt’s Regiment of Iron Men. In 'Oriental Armour', by H. Russell Robinson (1967), it is stated:
“now in the Tower Collection (which would now be the ‘Royal Armouries’) – the helmet shown with which is one of many made in Birmingham for the Khedive of Egypt’s regiment of Iron Men."

Information from Auctions Imperial (2012), indicates that deeply-domed helmets (similar to one on display in the National Army Museum, UK pictured below), from the Sudan surmounted by a spike ball- finial, with separately-applied brow plate and adjustable nasal guard. And including a camail woven of heavy split rings. The description of this helmet included the note:

"Helmets of this type were made in Birmingham, originally for the bodyguard of the Khedive of Egypt, known as the "Iron Men" (Auctions Imperial, 2012).

-------------------------------------------
This helmet (now in the National Army Museum), was once part of the Tower Collection; and the original commentary was: “now in the Tower Collection – the helmet shown with which is one of many made in Birmingham for the Khedive of Egypt’s regiment of ‘Iron Men’. The equipment was completed with a mail shirt made of split rings-and when the mail was struck by Sudanese bullets the brittle rings shattered and caused appalling wounds. The Sudanese, it would appear, only used the helmets they captured from the Egyptians, preferring the old shirts they had to the new ones fraught with so much risk.”

It also notes that in their original form, these Sudanese helmets with their long chainmail neck curtains were “sewn to a thickly quilted lining which extends to the shoulders, across the lower face, and then down to form a cuirass which laces up under the left arm.”

Finally, it appears that Wilkinson Sword Co. catalogues, from the 1860's were selling, "coats of steel chainmail, gauntlets and sword-proof helmets." Unquote.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 12:12 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
This is an astonishing picture displaying the Woven Armour of African cavalry Please see http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bullet-Proo...h/dp/B004LS2ZGE where the actual newspaper report can be magnified on Ancient quilted armour...

Wow, great picture! Didnt knew that even the Beja people (Which are assumed to be the sucessors of the Blemmyes by the way) wore quilted armour for men and horse. Thanks for that rare photo. Personaly, i would be interested to know if quilted horsearmour was already in use in Christian Sudanese times, or maybe even in ancient times. Concerning that i can offer some grafittos, but the dating is not entirely certain (The author says "Medieval era", but he dont explains why he assumes that. Armoured horses are not known in Christian Nuiban iconographies).

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesS
These mounted warriors from Kanem Bornu have always fascinated me. The Kingdom of Kanem Bornu is one of the few times in history two separate kingdoms (Kanem and Bornu) put aside their differences to unite for a cause, in this case desert raiders harassing both kingdoms. These mounted warriors essentially saved the two kingdoms from extinction.

If i remember right the two kingdoms dont melted voluntary, but Bornu was conquered by Kanem in the early medieval ages, while later the political center shifted from Kanem to Bornu.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesS
These are some photos and drawings of such mounted warriors. The color photo shows how they are celebrated today.

Keep in mind though that your second picture shows a knight of the kingdom of Baguirmi, not Kanem-Bornu. Baguirmi was a smaller kingdom south of Kanem-Bornu, which often was subdued to either Kanem-Bornu or Wadai, the other central Sudanese kingdom of major importance. See my other two paintings of Baguirmi knights.

Your second picture also dont shows Kanuri/Kanembu warriors, but rather Hausa ones, depicted in ceremonial armour on one of the traditional Hausa fastivals (You can scan Google for "Durbar/Hausa-festival" for many great photos).
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Old 22nd September 2015, 12:58 PM   #40
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Interesting old image showing an interior view of the Governor's Palace in Khartoum. Some examples of armour and a helmet can be seen near the top.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 03:11 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Taking the question of English produced armour...It appears so...

From Wikipedia I Quote".................................................. .................................................

Finally, it appears that Wilkinson Sword Co. catalogues, from the 1860's were selling, "coats of steel chainmail, gauntlets and sword-proof helmets." Unquote.


Ibrahiim, there is a difference between what people write and being able to prove it. The Wikipedia information is completely useless, check the citations and see if you can follow them to a verifiable source, I can not. As for the Wilkinson catelog from the 1860s, do you have a link to it? The only catelog from Wilkinson that I am aware of that describes what we are looking for is a 1851 exhibition catelog were they do describe mail hauberks and gauntlets, but they only mention their use in India, nothing about Egypt, no mention of split links either. It also mentions bridles, you can not control your horse if the bridle is cut. Ottoman-uniforms does not suppy any real proof in the way of verifiable sources that I can fins showing Wilkinson was involved in making either the hauberk or the helmets.

The book that mentions Wilkinson swords involvement in mail hauberk production has been misquoted, in this book "Khartoum campaign, 1898: or the re-conquest of the Soudan By Bennet Burleigh" 1899, the writer says that it is the helmets that were made by Wilkinson, not the mail hauberks. Please carefully read the quote from the book that I have provided below.
"Coats of chain-mail old and new, and steel helmets. Most of the latter are quite modern, being part of the 600 supplied by a London firm of sword makers-Wklkinson & Co. Pall Mall." Notice it reads latter, which would refer to the helmets I believe since the hauberks are mentioned before the the helmets.

All of the mentions in later books and web sites etc seem to be using the quote from this book to back up their claims that Wilkinson had anything to do with the mail hauberls purchased in England for the Khedives forces. If you or anyone else has any additional proof I would be more than happy to learn something new.

Below I have provided the quote directly from the 1851 Wilkinson catelog and the book I mention and a photo of what I believe to be one of the later made 1880s split link key chain mail hauberks next to a drawing of Khedive soldiers, 1880s, wearing the same hauberks.

It seems funny that in the many years between the 1851 Wilkinson catelog and the purchase by Egypt of 600 to 800 mail hauberks in the 1880s (30 years) there are no images from Wilkinson of these hauberks and no additional references to them (that I can find). Something else that I find amazing is that so far no photos of any of the Khedives forces wearing armor has surfaced, you would think with all of the drawings and descriptions someone would have taken a picture, I am still waiting for one to turn up.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 03:53 PM   #42
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For anyone interested in Khedival Egypt and Sudanese mahdi period armor I have put together a Pinterest site with all of the armor images I have found so far, although I probably have a few still hidden on my hard drive that I will add if they turn up and I will add any I find at a later date. I also have a general Khedive of Egypt Pinterest site with some great photos etc.

Armor of Khedival Egypt and the Sudanese Mahdist state.
https://www.pinterest.com/worldanti...nese-mahdist-s/

The Khedive of Egypt.
https://www.pinterest.com/worldanti...dives-of-egypt/
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Old 22nd September 2015, 04:03 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by estcrh
For anyone interested in Khedival Egypt and Sudanese mahdi period armor I have put together a Pinterest site with all of the armor images I have found so far, although I probably have a few still hidden on my hard drive that I will add if they turn up and I will add any I find at a later date. I also have a general Khedive of Egypt Pinterest site with some great photos etc.

Armor of Khedival Egypt and the Sudanese Mahdist state.
https://www.pinterest.com/worldanti...nese-mahdist-s/

The Khedive of Egypt.
https://www.pinterest.com/worldanti...dives-of-egypt/

Amazing! Maybe you or someone else here could do something similiar for the other armours which will come together in this thread?
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Old 22nd September 2015, 06:14 PM   #44
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Excellent responses and great detail and information everyone!
Linus has a great suggestion regarding the spectrum of body armours which have come into the discussion here, and while analogous to this discussion they all certainly have their own histories.

What is excellent here is the participation of so many in discovering more on the history of these armours and revising or reinforcing published data and generally held perceptions as required. It is our best hope that members and readers here continue research and share findings,
here we learn together!

Excellent notes pertaining to the helmet production Estcrh, and interesting to see that this material is misquoted, unfortunately not at all uncommon in early writings. However I would note here that Wikipedia is not entirely a useless source, but indeed must be used with caution and as you say, the sources must be rechecked. This is as far as I have known, pretty standard procedure for all published material, and just as with those resources, pertinent data must be rechecked. These are all benchmarks for further research.

Regarding the Wilkinson data, probably the best source for confirmation would be Mr Robert Wilkinson himself. He is a brilliant scholar, author and archivist who probably has more data on anything Wilkinson or associated than anyone else. It seems quite possible that some instances of material on these topics might have come from personal contact with him as he is quite active online and most helpful to peoples queries.

It is remarkable that a single 'chestnut' like the 1899 reference noted by Estrcrh can be the seed for numerous misquotes and notions in so much subsequent material. That is why what we do here is so important, and it is virtually incumbent on us to resolve these matters and preserve the corrected data.

Ian, what a fascinating aside on the 'Blemmyes'! and thank you for the interesting true story on this folklore. It is indeed intriguing to see how visual perceptions of armour in use, often somewhat outlandish to be sure, could lead to these bizarre notions and tall tales.

nKante, what a superb job of recreating this amazing armour and dress! This is excellent to see the key items used by these warriors in full dimension and preserving this wonderful heritage. Bravo!!!
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Old 22nd September 2015, 08:20 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by LinusLinothorax
Amazing! Maybe you or someone else here could do something similiar for the other armours which will come together in this thread?


I have done just that for many types of armor, weapons, photos etc.
https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiques/

You just need a data base of photos and correct information that can be merged together so that people can learn from what you have created. I often hear people talk about 'research", but if it is not readly and easily available to anyone then what good is the best reasearch, it may as well not exist. At one point I used Photobucket, Wikimedia Commons and Wikipedia to store photos and information but Pinterest allows anyone to instantly create a searchable database for whatever they have an interest in, as you can see.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 08:34 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
I would note here that Wikipedia is not entirely a useless source, but indeed must be used with caution and as you say, the sources must be rechecked.

Regarding the Wilkinson data, probably the best source for confirmation would be Mr Robert Wilkinson himself. He is a brilliant scholar, author and archivist who probably has more data on anything Wilkinson or associated than anyone else.


Jim, I have actually created several articles on Wikipedia about Japanese armor, weapons and horse related equipment and edited many more, adding good images and verifiable references. I have also added, categorized and edited thousands of images on Wikimedia Commons. They are both usefull sites when the information is correct. Unfortunately in this case when I searched for the information supposedly contained in the Wikipedia references I could find nothing, that is what I meant by "useless". The references could be good but unless someone can trace the references back and see for themselves then they are not useful for research.

It is quite possible that some of the armor used by the Khedives forces did in fact come from Wilkinson, but until the smoking gun is found it is best to let people know that Wilkinson "may" have made some of the armor rather than say they absolutely did make some of the armor. Your suggestion about contacting Wilkinson directly is an excellent approach.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 08:34 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by estcrh
I have done just that for many types of armor, weapons, photos etc.
https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiques/

You just need a data base of photos and correct information that can be merged together so that people can learn from what you have created. I often hear people talk about 'research", but if it is not readly and easily available to anyone then what good is the best reasearch, it may as well not exist. At one point I used Photobucket, Wikimedia Commons and Wikipedia to store photos and information but Pinterest allows anyone to instantly create a searchable database for whatever they have an interest in, as you can see.

These are some nice collections you made there, but if i see it right a collection called "African armours" is still missing. I guess if we have some more material posted in this thread you can create that very collection

If you need any more informations about the things i posted just tell me and i will write you a pm will all the informations i have.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 09:58 PM   #48
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Absolutely, and as you can see as a reliable participant on Wikipedia, it is all very much relative, and many entries such as those you placed are entirely usable. As I noted, it is incumbent on the user to take caution in the use of the material and must serve as a benchmark, not a final citation.

With Pininterest, I must admit I am largely unfamiliar but I know my wife, daughters etc use it a great deal. I had never thought of it as a resource for research as I thought it was mostly montage's of unattributed photos. While these are of course wonderfully attractive and intriguing, I have thought they were not especially helpful without captioning or pertinent identifying data. Is this perception incorrect?
It would be admittedly a great resource if indeed with those factors.

Actually with the armor, it seems references I had seen noted the mail had come from Birmingham, of course the key industrial area known for arms and all manner of equipment. Wilkinson was of course not in Birmingham so perhaps it might have been a Wilkinson subcontractor. Of these there were a good number, especially for colonially intended products. It seems that Mole was one for swords for example in those headed for India.

After Omdurman and during the Condominium, there was such a demand for souveniers that when supplies of actual items from the Sudanese faltered, there were facsimile items such as spearheads etc made in Birmingham to supply the souks.

The equipage of the Mahdist forces was certainly a hodgepodge and gathered from all kinds of sources, so to see varying helmets, swords, etc. must have been amazing. The sound mail hauberks from Mamluk/Ottoman sources certainly would have been represented in considerable numbers.

The examples of British manufacture which were apparently in degree with the Khedival forces as I found, were left and only the helmets taken, along of course with rifles etc. In the early part of the Mahdiyya most tribesmen did not even have swords. In references I have seen, many of the rank and file had wooden swords, and retrieved the swords of the fallen during the combats.

It would be extremely difficult to assert the presence of or absence of certain types of arms and armor in these campaigns due to the remarkably ersatz nature of equipping these forces. It is still interesting to seek any examples which may have been used in degree however.
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Old 22nd September 2015, 10:40 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

With Pininterest, I must admit I am largely unfamiliar but I know my wife, daughters etc use it a great deal. I had never thought of it as a resource for research as I thought it was mostly montage's of unattributed photos. While these are of course wonderfully attractive and intriguing, I have thought they were not especially helpful without captioning or pertinent identifying data. Is this perception incorrect?
It would be admittedly a great resource if indeed with those factors.


Jim, Pinterest is currently the best way to store and share photos and information with other people, basically everyone can have/be their own mini Wikipedia, each Pinterest post is allowed a 500 character description, if this is not enough one can write as much as they want on a notepad on their computer, they can then turn what they have written into a .jpg image by doing a screen print etc and saving it on their computer using an editor such as Irfanview, and then by using an editor they can easily attach/combine what they wrote to the image they want to post. I find that 500 characters is usually enough to adequitely describe most photos. You can also insert links to websites, articles, pdf etc.

If you have not already done so, please take a look at my Pinterest page and take a few minutes to open some of the categories I have created and look at the photos I have posted, read some descriptions and see for yourself, let me know what you think.

A few short years ago you could find almost no online information or photos of Khedival armor, now try a simple google search such as "khedive armor", see what you find under "web", then look under "images", no doubt you will see the real power of Pinterest. Due to Googles powerful search engine the internet is full of information and images of "khedive armor" for anyone to easily find, taken directly from Pinterest, forums, auctions, books and dealers websites. Some of what you will find was just posted a day or two ago, to me it is really amazing.

My Pinterest page.
https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiques/
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Old 23rd September 2015, 07:21 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by LinusLinothorax
These are some nice collections you made there, but if i see it right a collection called "African armours" is still missing. I guess if we have some more material posted in this thread you can create that very collection

If you need any more informations about the things i posted just tell me and i will write you a pm will all the informations i have.


Ok, I have created a Pinterest category for African armor, I will be adding images from my hard drive, forums and the internet, you can watch and hopefully add any additional information which may be missing or correct any image descriptions which you may find to be wrong. If this goes as planned it will eventually be the worlds largest African armor gallery/data base in the world. Images posted here will be added to my Pinterest category if they are relevant.

African armor.
https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiques/african-armor/
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Old 23rd September 2015, 08:40 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by estcrh
Ibrahiim, there is a difference between what people write and being able to prove it. The Wikipedia information is completely useless, check the citations and see if you can follow them to a verifiable source, I can not. As for the Wilkinson catelog from the 1860s, do you have a link to it? The only catelog from Wilkinson that I am aware of that describes what we are looking for is a 1851 exhibition catelog were they do describe mail hauberks and gauntlets, but they only mention their use in India, nothing about Egypt, no mention of split links either. It also mentions bridles, you can not control your horse if the bridle is cut. Ottoman-uniforms does not suppy any real proof in the way of verifiable sources that I can fins showing Wilkinson was involved in making either the hauberk or the helmets.

The book that mentions Wilkinson swords involvement in mail hauberk production has been misquoted, in this book "Khartoum campaign, 1898: or the re-conquest of the Soudan By Bennet Burleigh" 1899, the writer says that it is the helmets that were made by Wilkinson, not the mail hauberks. Please carefully read the quote from the book that I have provided below.
"Coats of chain-mail old and new, and steel helmets. Most of the latter are quite modern, being part of the 600 supplied by a London firm of sword makers-Wklkinson & Co. Pall Mall." Notice it reads latter, which would refer to the helmets I believe since the hauberks are mentioned before the the helmets.

All of the mentions in later books and web sites etc seem to be using the quote from this book to back up their claims that Wilkinson had anything to do with the mail hauberls purchased in England for the Khedives forces. If you or anyone else has any additional proof I would be more than happy to learn something new.

Below I have provided the quote directly from the 1851 Wilkinson catelog and the book I mention and a photo of what I believe to be one of the later made 1880s split link key chain mail hauberks next to a drawing of Khedive soldiers, 1880s, wearing the same hauberks.

It seems funny that in the many years between the 1851 Wilkinson catelog and the purchase by Egypt of 600 to 800 mail hauberks in the 1880s (30 years) there are no images from Wilkinson of these hauberks and no additional references to them (that I can find). Something else that I find amazing is that so far no photos of any of the Khedives forces wearing armor has surfaced, you would think with all of the drawings and descriptions someone would have taken a picture, I am still waiting for one to turn up.


Salaams estcrh, You wrote.......Quote."The Wikipedia information is completely useless, check the citations and see if you can follow them to a verifiable source, I can not". Unquote. ....

I wrote "Taking the question of English produced armour..."It appears so..." and under that; the content carefully placed in quotation marks..

It may well be that a quotation is proven to be partially incorrect but it is not the fault of the author who exposes/refers to the information ...Note my carefully worded starter "It appears so" ...which is rather like saying ..."It is said that"......

Wikepedia information is however, not useless. It operates like a huge search engine and encyclopedia and as you know corrections are invited. Broadly speaking we take the information from such libraries and sift it ...model it...and present it so that it then passes before our very eyes and into Library...where it still may be scrutinized ...I think we avoid using such terminology as ..."It is completely useless"...etc. etc. whereas I am entirely in support of correcting such mistakes as have already appeared even in well accepted authors works down the ages.

It remains, however, important to follow and expose details as we discover them and it has always been my technique to present what I find in support of threads by looking into every possibility to hand... which includes Forum Library, books and the web...thus occasionally Wikepedia (which I find excellent) and even Pinterest.

I even noted privately when it began, that Pinterest makes an excellent addition to Forum content, however, it is not the be all and end all to web based research as it is generally all about pictures...and there are other areas to obtain details....It may be noted how in the past a storage system of pictures collapses leaving Forum without photographs thus great care has to be taken before investing our Libraries details and credibility in a potentially vanishing format...

Here is a classic thread full of interest in an area otherwise hardly exposed before... but now with a bright Forum light shining on it !!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

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Old 23rd September 2015, 10:28 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Salaams estcrh, You wrote.......Quote."The Wikipedia information is completely useless, check the citations and see if you can follow them to a verifiable source, I can not". Unquote. ....

I wrote "Taking the question of English produced armour..."It appears so..." and under that; the content carefully placed in quotation marks..

It may well be that a quotation is proven to be partially incorrect but it is not the fault of the author who exposes/refers to the information ...Note my carefully worded starter "It appears so" ...which is rather like saying ..."It is said that"......

Wikepedia information is however, not useless.
I even noted privately when it began, that Pinterest makes an excellent addition to Forum content, however, it is not the be all and end all to web based research as it is generally all about pictures...and there are other areas to obtain details....It may be noted how in the past a storage system of pictures collapses leaving Forum without photographs thus great care has to be taken before investing our Libraries details and credibility in a potentially vanishing format...


Ibrahiim, I think I did not make myself clear enough, sorry about that, I meant that in THIS particular instance, the information on the origins of Khedival armor was (to me at least) completely useless....because when I tried to find the information in the references that were used in the article they led nowhere (at least for me), one reference did not show up at all when I searched for it and the other was a modern book that when searched did not show the information that the article said it contained. I was in no way saying that you believed the information to be true, you were just pointing it out, and I was just pointing out my thoughts on the usefullness of the references as research material.


As for Pinterest, I invite you to take some time and throughly look at my Pinterest site, it is certainly not "all about pictures" unless you want it to be. Besides pictures you can post books, articles and essays, pdfs, you can write your own research papers and convert them to a .jpg and post them on pinterest, you can post links to websites and articles. It is a complete storage system that allows you to categorize images and information in a way that no other system I am aware of allows you to do. People who shrug off Pinterest as only being about "pictures" have not taken a good look at its possibilities.

Quote:
It may be noted how in the past a storage system of pictures collapses leaving Forum without photographs thus great care has to be taken before investing our Libraries details and credibility in a potentially vanishing format.
The lack of image uploading upgrades has left this forum in the past, the small images size and lack of inline attachments makes it very hard to post images and add appropriate matching text, this limits what people will post on the forum and I am sure many people just do not bother to post images here at all due to these limitations. So as a storage system for images the forum also has some its on problems.


Here is an example of what you can do with Pinterest besides posting pretty pictures.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.co...821cfbb667c.png

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Old 23rd September 2015, 11:38 PM   #53
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AFRICAN KNIGHTS:The Armies of Sokoto, Bornu and Bagirmi in the 19th Century by Conrad Cairns, 2006, covers the period that began with the Sokoto jihad in 1804 and ended with the extinction of the Savannah states by the European powers in the 20th c, provides a brief history of the three states and examines the arms, equipment and methods of warfare used by their armoured 'knights' and infantry, sections on horses, artillery, flags, fortifications, clothing, with photographs and engravings.
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Old 24th September 2015, 08:07 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by estcrh
Ibrahiim, I think I did not make myself clear enough, sorry about that, I meant that in THIS particular instance, the information on the origins of Khedival armor was (to me at least) completely useless....because when I tried to find the information in the references that were used in the article they led nowhere (at least for me), one reference did not show up at all when I searched for it and the other was a modern book that when searched did not show the information that the article said it contained. I was in no way saying that you believed the information to be true, you were just pointing it out, and I was just pointing out my thoughts on the usefullness of the references as research material.


As for Pinterest, I invite you to take some time and throughly look at my Pinterest site, it is certainly not "all about pictures" unless you want it to be. Besides pictures you can post books, articles and essays, pdfs, you can write your own research papers and convert them to a .jpg and post them on pinterest, you can post links to websites and articles. It is a complete storage system that allows you to categorize images and information in a way that no other system I am aware of allows you to do. People who shrug off Pinterest as only being about "pictures" have not taken a good look at its possibilities.

The lack of image uploading upgrades has left this forum in the past, the small images size and lack of inline attachments makes it very hard to post images and add appropriate matching text, this limits what people will post on the forum and I am sure many people just do not bother to post images here at all due to these limitations. So as a storage system for images the forum also has some its on problems.


Here is an example of what you can do with Pinterest besides posting pretty pictures.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.co...821cfbb667c.png



Salaams estcrh, Regretably you mixed up two references...One from Wikepedia and the other with the actual quote was from my second reference http://www.ottoman-uniforms.com/egy...xpedition-1883/ ...Therefor Wikepedia in this instance is vindicated.

It is interesting that there are actually few accounts of the Hicks expedition not least because there were few people left alive to recount the details because it was almost totally annihilated.

I use Pinterest occasionally as it can be seen that the images are excellent. Unfortunately their website insists that users join another media site to access and frankly it puts me off as I consider it an invasion of privacy...but certainly it is worth considering ..though as I say ...I am very happy using a broad range of research concepts and since books on the subject are quite difficult to get here the web fills in as second best....We are after all ...it should be remembered ...also a web based information retrieval cell...

I will certainly look in at your site. Meanwhile good luck with the African Armour details.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.
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Old 24th September 2015, 11:30 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
Salaams estcrh, Regretably you mixed up two references...One from Wikepedia and the other with the actual quote was from my second reference http://www.ottoman-uniforms.com/egy...xpedition-1883/ ...Therefor Wikepedia in this instance is vindicated.



Ibrahiim, actually Wikipedia is NOT vindicated at all. I do not mind being wrong but in this case I know exactly what I am talking about. I have directly saved the Wikipedia text that mentions Wilkinson and mail, and the references indicated, #19. "Men Who Wear Armour.". The Daily Mail. 1886. #20. Randolph, T.H. (1892). The Wilkinson Sword Catalog. The Wilkinson Sword Co. Ltd. p. 41. #21. Google Books Iron Men

The first reference is a newspaper article, which according to Wikipedias standareds for valid references is not a valid reference. In most cases facts that come from websites, newspapers, self published books are not usable as reliable references.

Anyway try finding the article mentioned ("Men Who Wear Armour.". The Daily Mail. 1886.), I can not find a mention of it anywere except in reference to the Wikipedia article, if the reference can not be found what use is it? So an other useless reference as far as Wilkinson Swords goes.

The next reference is Randolph, T.H. (1892). The Wilkinson Sword Catalog. The Wilkinson Sword Co. Ltd., again I have looked for this catelog and I can not find it, so another useless reference as far as Wilkinson Swords goes.

The third reference is a modern book, Google Books Iron Men, there is a link to a book called Khedive Ismail's Army, John P. Dunn, 2004. This book does not mention Wilkinson sword at all as far as I can tell, it mentions "zirhagi" (iron men) which is another useless reference as far as Wilkinson Swords goes.

As for the references go, ottoman-uniforms.com does a great job and I give a lot of credit to Dr Flaherty, but it is a work in progress, images and text change from time to time, information is added and removed, sometimes links die as well.
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Old 25th September 2015, 12:38 AM   #56
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estcrh, Thank you for your reply.. I don't want to bog down the thread as I have pointed out the Hicks was a badly recorded expedition as well as a total disaster; Wikipedia can hardly be blamed for misreporting and besides it is a self correcting encyclopedia as well as a monumental record of all things...and being web based is equally concerned with getting the facts right as we are.

I gave two entirely different references and you molded them both together...This is a bit unfair.

Sometimes researchers cannot find exactly what they are searching for... Sometimes they do. My advice is to keep looking and perhaps gain the e mail address of one of the survivors of Wilkinson Sword...if you feel it is of absolute importance in this regard. Frankly I don't think it is... There is a lot of material worth looking at and you can meanwhile pencil the chain mail suits into the margin for later...

Meanwhile I continue to observe the development of this interesting thread and I am particularly interested how Arab involvement altered or became adapted into African style.

It occurred to me that rather than rigid regimental armoured cavalry and armoured infantry units that African tribal grouping fell into and out of uniform armour at a whim...that instead it was rather transient as a concept both because of the heat...and local traditions....while the thick cloth or material style was preferred over the heavy metal. That is not to say they never used armour..It has been shown that they occasionally did...although they certainly preferred a shield in the traditional sense which is after all an armoured concept.

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Old 25th September 2015, 01:24 AM   #57
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A close up of the cloth armour; From Pinterest; Sudanese quilted armor. Armor for horse and rider displayed in the British Museum were captured from the army of Mahdi Muhammad Ahmad ibn ‘Abd Allah (Battle of Omdurman,1898), cotton stuffed with kapok, loosely quilted horizontally and firmly quilted vertically. L:134 cm, W:131 cm, suggesting the sleeves are probably 3/4 length. the long length and high central vent is consistent with a cavalryman’s armor.
The small picture showing how best to get out of ones armoured shirt...
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Old 26th September 2015, 04:14 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
estcrh, Thank you for your reply.. I don't want to bog down the thread as I have pointed out the Hicks was a badly recorded expedition as well as a total disaster; Wikipedia can hardly be blamed for misreporting and besides it is a self correcting encyclopedia as well as a monumental record of all things...and being web based is equally concerned with getting the facts right as we are.

I gave two entirely different references and you molded them both together...This is a bit unfair.

Sometimes researchers cannot find exactly what they are searching for... Sometimes they do. My advice is to keep looking and perhaps gain the e mail address of one of the survivors of Wilkinson Sword...if you feel it is of absolute importance in this regard. Frankly I don't think it is... There is a lot of material worth looking at and you can meanwhile pencil the chain mail suits into the margin for later...

Meanwhile I continue to observe the development of this interesting thread and I am particularly interested how Arab involvement altered or became adapted into African style.

It occurred to me that rather than rigid regimental armoured cavalry and armoured infantry units that African tribal grouping fell into and out of uniform armour at a whim...that instead it was rather transient as a concept both because of the heat...and local traditions....while the thick cloth or material style was preferred over the heavy metal. That is not to say they never used armour..It has been shown that they occasionally did...although they certainly preferred a shield in the traditional sense which is after all an armoured concept.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.



Occasionally I have to write to myself !... I was reviewing the few publications on things about African Armour and discovered a book by Christopher Spring curator at the British Museum...see below.

One account from a reader indicates...Quote" AFRICAN ARMS AND ARMOUR not only talk about the weapons, but it also provides many excellent historical accounts of the weapons in use throughout history. It was fascinating to learn that African weapons were not restricted to just spears and hide shields like many may believe today, but they also had as wide a variety of weapons as could be found anywhere in the world, complete with swords, bows, cavalry, and even armor. This is a good book to read for not only weapons enthusiasts, but also history buffs". Unquote.
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Old 26th September 2015, 04:59 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi
estcrh, Thank you for your reply.. I don't want to bog down the thread as I have pointed out the Hicks was a badly recorded expedition as well as a total disaster; Wikipedia can hardly be blamed for misreporting and besides it is a self correcting encyclopedia as well as a monumental record of all things...and being web based is equally concerned with getting the facts right as we are.

I gave two entirely different references and you molded them both together...This is a bit unfair.

Ibrahiim, I should probably have worded my comment differently, I think we are just not understanding each other, the references were dead ends in the matter of were the Khedives armor was made and who made it, I know that you were just presenting some additional references, and the excellent research you put into your posts is much appreciated by me.

As for the Hicks expedition, here is an interesting print that shows the diverse and motley crew of soldiers cobbled together in an ill fated attempt to deal with the Mahdi.

Quote:
Left to right, Albanian Bashi Bazouk (Infantry), Kurd (Cavalry), Sudanese Regular, Bosnian Bashi Bazouk (Infantry), Syrian Bashi Bazouk, Egyptian Cuirssier, in Shirt of Mail, with Pot Helmet and LInked Hood Similar to that Worn by the Saracens of Saladia. Greek Bashi Bazouk from the Turkish Provences, Fella or Regular Egyptian Infantryman, Segir of the Dromedary (camel) Scouting Corps, and Segir or Arab from the Country between Shendy and Dongala.
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Old 26th September 2015, 06:25 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by estcrh
Ibrahiim, I should probably have worded my comment differently, I think we are just not understanding each other, the references were dead ends in the matter of were the Khedives armor was made and who made it, I know that you were just presenting some additional references, and the excellent research you put into your posts is much appreciated by me.

As for the Hicks expedition, here is an interesting print that shows the diverse and motley crew of soldiers cobbled together in an ill fated attempt to deal with the Mahdi.



Salaams estcrh, I have no problem with this at all... Occasionally different people use different techniques to open these Pandoras box problems... Most people have trouble following the rapid twists and turns of a web that is crashing along at exponential rates of knowledge/detail intake. The picture you show of the Hicks soldiers is remarkable and probably one of those sketches for the London Times...Probably by the time that report was printed ...most of that huge expedition were dead....!!

Regards,
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