The Purpose of Keris Panjang

milandro · 9th March 2024, 08:54 AM

the Keris Panjang may very well have been used predominately as a ceremonial weapon, yet the construction, at least of the one I have, is one of a true weapon (as many western ceremonial weapons too have ) with a fuller running in the center ( with two consequent risers to give rigidity) almost the whole length of the blade and a forte with a long sogokan to strengthen the blade where it matters for use that may support at least some slashing intentions. Did I mention that the blade appears to be hardened? The legend of the execution is supported by very few accounts and it doesn't take a great anatomist to see that a 35cm blade would be more than apt to pierce the heart from the shoulder collar bone , so, making mine a 65cm blade is , quite literally, an overkill!

True the tang, the pesi, won't be long and wide enough though. to support much slashing .

This is my Panjang. It came with a king fisher hilt which I don't think it is the proper one and so I am replacing it (see other thread on the Pattani hilts on panjangs).

about videos, there are many silat video's displaying fighting techniques on you tube, it is always possible that some would show Panjang use.

on you tube you can also see videos from Malay makers and you see how condiderably simpler the construction of more modern Panjang is let alone the fact that the modern ones seem often to show pamor which the older ones don't have

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAqdWEHhvV4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlEesFQyamg&t=747s

David · 10th March 2024, 12:41 AM

That's a really beautiful panjang Milandro. I love that really unusual greneng variation. I have never seen that before. Someone (not me LOL!) might be able to pinpoint the origin of this blade with that clue. I'm thinking perhaps more Peninsula than Sumatra.
Neither of the panjang shown in the videos have hilts that are generally seen on old panjang as far as i know, but there is probably some variation depending on originating culture. Here is my example.

Pendita65 · 10th March 2024, 12:47 PM

Could not resist after seeing these beauties to share my Keris. I bought it and the blade could not go inside with the last ten cm. After close inspection at home it turned out the warangka was reglued wrong. Had to take it of from the gander repair the lips that go inside the warangka and reguleren it all together. It has a greenish horn warangka and tip on the bottom. Silver cup.

Regards from Amsterdam.

Martin

Sajen · 10th March 2024, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milandro

.... and you see how condiderably simpler the construction of more modern Panjang is let alone the fact that the modern ones seem often to show pamor which the older ones don't have.

That is so not true! There are antique panjang blades with pamor like you can see by one of my examples.

milandro · 10th March 2024, 06:48 PM

well, obviously , as you show, there are some examples such as these .

Interesting though the fact that the blades with pamor in the examples above seem to show no fuller and construction similar to the modern example with pamor. Maybe some forging reason why that is?

Sajen · 10th March 2024, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milandro

well, obviously , as you show, there are some examples such as these .

Interesting though the fact that the blades with pamor in the examples above seem to show no fuller and construction similar to the modern example with pamor. Maybe some forging reason why that is?

I frankly have no clue!

I only know that the construction is called kapit, see here for more info: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=panjang

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 10th March 2024, 08:54 PM

When a pamor blade is made it is usually made of a very thin steel core and with a plate of pamor material welded to each face of the steel core.

If deep fullers & other carving is added to the blade it will cut through the pamor plates and expose the plain material of the core, thus losing the enhancement of pamor.

We see pretty much the same thing with Javanese & Balinese blades, it comes down to whether we want a blade with pamor or a blade with carved enhancements.

There is a way of making a blade where we can have our cake & eat it too, & that is to make the entire central body of the blade of pamor material, & then weld an edge into this pamor, but this method of construction is very seldom encountered, & I have not seen a blade made in this way that is younger than a couple of hundred years old.

The word "kapit" is Malay, it means to support on each side. My understanding of this word when applied to keris is that it refers to a blade that has had part of the blade rivetted to the other part of the blade. However, I guess that it could also apply to a pamor blade, because the core of a pamor blade is supported on either side by the pamor material.

Sajen · 10th March 2024, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

When a pamor blade is made it is usually made of a very thin steel core and with a plate of pamor material welded to each face of the steel core.

If deep fullers & other carving is added to the blade it will cut through the pamor plates and expose the plain material of the core, thus losing the enhancement of pamor.

Thank you Alan, sounds logical!

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 10th March 2024, 10:13 PM

Not just logical Detlef, actual as well:-

think of a chocolate cake

nice, thick, rich, moist choccy cake

tastes great

now Grandma slaps thick, high qual Belgium chocolate icing onto it

she adds the thick, freshly whipped cream

then some maraschino cherries

looks fantastic

blows away the diet with one slice

little Teddy sees that cake

Little Teddy loves choccy icing

and cream, and cherries

Little Teddy got no weight problem

he takes a spoon to Grandma's choccy masterpiece and removes all that enhancement

what everybody else is left with is unenhanced chocolate cake

same as keris:- scrape off the pamor, what you got is plain old garden quality steel.

9th March 2024, 08:54 AM	#1
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 425	the Keris Panjang may very well have been used predominately as a ceremonial weapon, yet the construction, at least of the one I have, is one of a true weapon (as many western ceremonial weapons too have ) with a fuller running in the center ( with two consequent risers to give rigidity) almost the whole length of the blade and a forte with a long sogokan to strengthen the blade where it matters for use that may support at least some slashing intentions. Did I mention that the blade appears to be hardened? The legend of the execution is supported by very few accounts and it doesn't take a great anatomist to see that a 35cm blade would be more than apt to pierce the heart from the shoulder collar bone , so, making mine a 65cm blade is , quite literally, an overkill! True the tang, the pesi, won't be long and wide enough though. to support much slashing . This is my Panjang. It came with a king fisher hilt which I don't think it is the proper one and so I am replacing it (see other thread on the Pattani hilts on panjangs). about videos, there are many silat video's displaying fighting techniques on you tube, it is always possible that some would show Panjang use. on you tube you can also see videos from Malay makers and you see how condiderably simpler the construction of more modern Panjang is let alone the fact that the modern ones seem often to show pamor which the older ones don't have https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAqdWEHhvV4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlEesFQyamg&t=747s Attached Images Last edited by milandro; 9th March 2024 at 09:09 AM.

10th March 2024, 12:41 AM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,053	That's a really beautiful panjang Milandro. I love that really unusual greneng variation. I have never seen that before. Someone (not me LOL!) might be able to pinpoint the origin of this blade with that clue. I'm thinking perhaps more Peninsula than Sumatra. Neither of the panjang shown in the videos have hilts that are generally seen on old panjang as far as i know, but there is probably some variation depending on originating culture. Here is my example. Attached Images

10th March 2024, 12:47 PM	#3
Pendita65 Member Join Date: Feb 2023 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 73	Could not resist after seeing these beauties to share my Keris. I bought it and the blade could not go inside with the last ten cm. After close inspection at home it turned out the warangka was reglued wrong. Had to take it of from the gander repair the lips that go inside the warangka and reguleren it all together. It has a greenish horn warangka and tip on the bottom. Silver cup. Regards from Amsterdam. Martin Attached Images

10th March 2024, 06:48 PM	#5
milandro Member Join Date: Jan 2022 Location: Netherlands Posts: 425	well, obviously , as you show, there are some examples such as these . Interesting though the fact that the blades with pamor in the examples above seem to show no fuller and construction similar to the modern example with pamor. Maybe some forging reason why that is?

10th March 2024, 08:54 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,758	When a pamor blade is made it is usually made of a very thin steel core and with a plate of pamor material welded to each face of the steel core. If deep fullers & other carving is added to the blade it will cut through the pamor plates and expose the plain material of the core, thus losing the enhancement of pamor. We see pretty much the same thing with Javanese & Balinese blades, it comes down to whether we want a blade with pamor or a blade with carved enhancements. There is a way of making a blade where we can have our cake & eat it too, & that is to make the entire central body of the blade of pamor material, & then weld an edge into this pamor, but this method of construction is very seldom encountered, & I have not seen a blade made in this way that is younger than a couple of hundred years old. The word "kapit" is Malay, it means to support on each side. My understanding of this word when applied to keris is that it refers to a blade that has had part of the blade rivetted to the other part of the blade. However, I guess that it could also apply to a pamor blade, because the core of a pamor blade is supported on either side by the pamor material.

10th March 2024, 10:13 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,758	Not just logical Detlef, actual as well:- think of a chocolate cake nice, thick, rich, moist choccy cake tastes great now Grandma slaps thick, high qual Belgium chocolate icing onto it she adds the thick, freshly whipped cream then some maraschino cherries looks fantastic blows away the diet with one slice little Teddy sees that cake Little Teddy loves choccy icing and cream, and cherries Little Teddy got no weight problem he takes a spoon to Grandma's choccy masterpiece and removes all that enhancement what everybody else is left with is unenhanced chocolate cake same as keris:- scrape off the pamor, what you got is plain old garden quality steel.