Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11th July 2020, 05:26 PM   #1
Mel H
Member
 
Mel H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: North East England.
Posts: 107
Default Two Shamshir / Killij / Scimitar for comment

One with horn grips and a reasonably heavily curved 78 cm un-fullered blade having a slightly broadened, double edged tip (27 cm).

The other, has Ivory grips and a very wide cross guard (18.5 cm) and a less curved, 84 cm pipe back blade,

Neither have any markings, stamps or engravings.
Knowing that some 19th C. European Officers favoured the Mameluke style, I did at one time wonder if the Horn one may be of European origin.

Any advice with regard to their origins ( and correct terminology) would be welcomed.
Attached Images
  
Mel H is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th July 2020, 07:12 PM   #2
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default

I think both of them are European.
As to terminology: both are “ Mameluke swords” for the Europeans, both are “kilij” for the Ottomans, both are “shamshirs” for the Persians or Indo-Persians.
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th July 2020, 01:03 AM   #3
Oliver Pinchot
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 456
Default

The straighter of the two is Indian work, likely for a British or East India Company officer.
Oliver Pinchot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th July 2020, 02:21 PM   #4
David R
Member
 
David R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,048
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot
The straighter of the two is Indian work, likely for a British or East India Company officer.
I can see why you think that, given the deep "Indian Ricasso", but the pipe back blade is very European. Eastern blades tend to have a T section rather than a keyhole section or ramrod back.
David R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th July 2020, 03:10 PM   #5
Mel H
Member
 
Mel H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: North East England.
Posts: 107
Default

Grateful for all of your thoughts, I've had them for quite a while and never quite made up my mind about either of them. I did wonder about the Pipe back but was always thrown by the construction of the grips which I thought was a feature more seen on Eastern hilts.
Thanks, Mel.
Mel H is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th July 2020, 03:46 PM   #6
Oliver Pinchot
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 456
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David R
I can see why you think that, given the deep "Indian Ricasso", but the pipe back blade is very European. Eastern blades tend to have a T section rather than a keyhole section or ramrod back.
I've seen many pipeback blades, but never one of this form. If you have, kindly post an image? I think, otherwise, that your observation is a syllogism.

Indian smiths were capable of creating blades based on a sketch or even a description, and regularly conflated European characteristics in their work, particularly for European patrons.
Oliver Pinchot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd August 2020, 09:03 PM   #7
Cthulhu
Member
 
Cthulhu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Central Valley, California
Posts: 46
Default

Mameluke-hilted swords were a bit of a fad in the early 1800s in Europe, possibly because of French campaigns in Egypt. ...and I probably shouldn't say fad, since there are western military units that to this day use that style as their dress sword. For instance look at photos of the US Marines officer's saber.

The guard on the more curved example looks western to me, though I can't put my finger on why.

Oliver, what makes you say the less curved one is Indian? The ricasso certainly points that way, is there anything else that makes the determination for you?
Cthulhu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th July 2020, 02:17 PM   #8
David R
Member
 
David R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,048
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
I think both of them are European.
As to terminology: both are “ Mameluke swords” for the Europeans, both are “kilij” for the Ottomans, both are “shamshirs” for the Persians or Indo-Persians.
I very much agree.
David R is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:55 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.