A Trio of Chinese Swords Joins the Accidental Collection

[Lee]

I can provide a more detailed image, which I have done below, but unfortunately I am ignorant of the origins of the design. A few other dao in my collection have somewhat fancier and shorter metal encasements of the scabbard tip while this one is longer and less wide.

Hopefully Philip, who wrote one of the articles I consulted, or another member may be able to give an informed answer.

[Lee]

So, no interest in or comment on these swords? Are they all very, very recent 'fakes' - I am not afraid that I was 'taken' as I do not have a lot invested in them. So, please, enlighten me!

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Lee

So, no interest in or comment on these swords? Are they all very, very recent 'fakes' - I am not afraid that I was 'taken' as I do not have a lot invested in them. So, please, enlighten me!

Lee,
I know, it is a frustrating experience to show a sword for discussion and get zero responses.
In your case it is not so much lack of interest in a particular posting as the lack of knowledge about the general topic (thin line berween the two but you understand my meaning)
I can hardly remember anyone on this forum dedicated to Chinese swords.

Your query can be professionally answered only by a Chinese-focused person, and I can recall only one,- Peter Dekker. Certainly there are others in the general arms-collecting community, but I just do not know of them.

Sorry for being of no use.

[Tim Simmons]

Lack of knowledge indeed. I had a huge good steel, two handed Chinese sword with a long rectangular red painted handle. A brass circular loose fitting guard. Your usual militaria people would say this is just a show theatre sword. I now deeply regret letting it go for very little. If you have a hunch don't be fooled by lore and the uniformed. Hang on to it until sure.

[werecow]

Originally Posted by ariel

I can hardly remember anyone on this forum dedicated to Chinese swords.

Your query can be professionally answered only by a Chinese-focused person, and I can recall only one,- Peter Dekker.

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Lack of knowledge indeed.

Outside of Mandarin Mansion it seems to be surprisingly hard to find good information about Chinese swords. Are there any good, well illustrated English language books about antique Chinese arms out there?

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Lack of knowledge indeed. I had a huge good steel, two handed Chinese sword with a long rectangular red painted handle. A brass circular loose fitting guard. Your usual militaria people would say this is just a show theatre sword. I now deeply regret letting it go for very little. If you have a hunch don't be fooled by lore and the uniformed. Hang on to it until sure.

Tim, those militaria people are next to useless when evaluating anything ethnographic, or even pre-Industrial Revolution European weapons. I've lost track of the times when, at a gun show, some yahoo showed me a crappy Filipino or Chinese fighting knife and tried to sell it to me as a "last ditch Confederate naval bowie". If my restoration talents took a turn for larceny I bet I could make a few bucks by stamping CSA on the blades and inducing the proper level of pitting and patina to match everything else.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by ariel

... Your query can be professionally answered only by a Chinese-focused person, and I can recall only one,- Peter Dekker. Certainly there are others in the general arms-collecting community, but I just do not know of them...

How about PhilipTom; i guess he didn't notice this thread... yet !

[ariel]

Originally Posted by fernando

How about PhilipTom; i guess he didn't notice this thread... yet !

Sorry, sorry, sorry!
Alzheimer moment…..

[fernando]

Originally Posted by ariel

Sorry, sorry, sorry!
Alzheimer moment…..

I told you. The cavalry hasn't yet been alerted .

[ariel]

Since Philip Tom with his vast knowledge of Eastern weapons has joined the discussion, I would like to re-address my question to him:
- what are his thoughts about the peculiar form of the chape of the scabbard belonging to the second from the top sword? Is it specifically Chinese or was it employed in other cultures?

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Lee

I can provide a more detailed image, which I have done below, but unfortunately I am ignorant of the origins of the design. A few other dao in my collection have somewhat fancier and shorter metal encasements of the scabbard tip while this one is longer and less wide.

Hopefully Philip, who wrote one of the articles I consulted, or another member may be able to give an informed answer.

A most interesting saber. The blade is definitely old, though without having it in hand I'd be hesitant to say whether late 17th, 18th, or turn of 19th. The tunkou doesn't look stylistically quite right to me, it could well be a later replacement which is something occasionally seen on these sabers when the hilt fittings have been replaced. Which is definitely the case here -- the German-silver ( a cupronickel alloy) look possibly late 19th to early 20th. The chape design is unusual but legitimate. What is really odd is the construction of the suspension system. Normally, the bands have little tabs that are riveted to the sides of the bar. On better examples, they are recessed into the sides of the bar. Here they are soldered or brazed in place. The scabbard fittings on jian, with their fixed loops for the hanging straps, are assembled the same way. But I can't recall the last time I saw this construction on a saber scabbard. The upturned ends of the suspension bar are also strange. From a functional standpoint you don't want a gap where the bar terminates, next to the scabbard because things could possibly snag there. A normal saber scabbard has the bar ending flush against the dorsal edge of the sheath. Looking at the entire set of fittings, they are definitely later than the blade but, judging from the images, don't have a "new" feel to me. If you have a pic of the tang peening mushroom on the end of the pommel, I can get a better idea of when the re-hilting likely occurred.

[Lee]

Originally Posted by Philip

If you have a pic of the tang peening mushroom on the end of the pommel, I can get a better idea of when the re-hilting likely occurred.

Philip, thank you for your insights on these swords as well the notes on their provenance. When I first saw them at the preview, it was clear that they had all required significant polishing and restoration and it was also clear that the work was of excellent quality (and reminded me of some of your fine work that had come my way via Scott Rodell decades ago.) These three swords came from a rural auction in upstate New York.

I have attached an image of the pommel showing the peening of the tang in the sword with later cupronickel mountings as you have suggested.

I refer to my collection of about a dozen Chinese swords as my "accidental" collection as for whatever reason, knowledge about them was pretty scarce in my earlier collecting days and so I never actively sought them. I guess a number of other collectors were influenced by the same information void. Fortunately a few really nice examples did find me over the years (via Scott Rodell, the Yaroms and Peter Dekker) but a number were chance encounters. I remember a dealer in Brimfield once 'begging" me to take a pair of Chinese swords, a big ring pommel and a big ox-tail at $75 each, if I recall correctly. I suspected they were recent and artificially aged, but I took them home anyway as he had done me well on another item. Months later, I examined them with more care and realized they were decent antiques!

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Lee

Philip, thank you for your insights on these swords as well the notes on their provenance. .

I have attached an image of the pommel showing the peening of the tang in the sword with later cupronickel mountings as you have suggested.

You're most welcome. Odd how that ring pommeled knife that I did the extensive restoration / rebuild on went all the way from the Sandwich Isles to a rural sale in the upcountry Empire State.

Thanks for the photo. The appearance of the peened iron doesn't have the color and texture of something that's been accumulating patina over as many years as that blade is likely to have been around.

The brass of the pommel appears to be of fairly flimsy sheet. This spells "late" and possibly decorative or theatrical to me. A blade like the one on that's on there now would likely have had something more substantial.

The more I look at the suspension system, the stranger things become. Not only are the soldered/brazed-on bands highly atypical for a saber scabbard, but also I see that the tops of the loops are also attached to the bar itself in a similar fashion. In almost all cases the bar itself is a one-piece construction, either forged and drilled/filed in the case of iron, or cast to shape in the case of non-ferrous alloys.

[Philip]

Another thing about this set of metal hardware that's a bit funny -- the chape has a chased border with a decorative curlicue at the apex. The throat and two bands lack any border. This runs counter to the preference for stylistic consistency when it comes to embellishment of the basic forms.

[Philip]

Lee, I know that photos can sometimes deceive when it comes to color and tone when camera angle and ambient lighting come into play. With the piece in your hands, do you notice any difference in the color of the metal between the pommel/ferrule, the guard, and the scabbard fittings?

[Lee]

It will be a day or two until I can again get the sword in my hands and in good light, but the original set of images was prepared in overcast sunlight.

The scabbard mounts and the guard are in a very similar and quite pale alloy, I presume a brass, though unusually pale. The ferrule of the hilt and the pommel are of a yellower alloy, I believe towards a more 'typical' brass.

The scabbard mounts are of adequately thick gauge stock compared to the pommel. My impression was that these mounts did show some age and evidence of honest use, but clearly not so much as the blade, just as you suspect. The lacquer on the scabbard also appeared to have some age.