Tilang Kamerau

[Mytribalworld]

Originally Posted by Mytribalworld

Hi Roy,

both articles are certainly worth to read and contain worth full information but good information was sometimes scarves and so the writer(s) had to relay on one single source. Than you can easily makes mistakes.
Schelford was writing in 1901 while Banks wrote his article about 30 years later and between the lines in the Banks article you can see that. Some information isn't correct but otherwise the subject of the blade shapes ( usong) is very useful. Heppel reviewed these articles quite recent and also that article give some good info but also Heppell on his turn isn't perfect and there are also some mistakes in it. But all with all respect for all 3.

About mistakes, I'will try to add the pictures of the TK. And then we see that or the description is wrong, or the tag is wrong or.........

TILANG KAMARAN !

[A. G. Maisey]

Interesting.

So we are talking about the scabbard, not talking about the sword, and the name of the scabbard is tilang kamaran.

Kamaran comes from the root "kamar", now commonly understood as "a room".

In Classical Malay there are several meanings for "kamar":- a room, a cabin, an upstairs room; a scarf, a girdle; the moon.

These were taken straight from Wilkinson, the common usage that we all know is "a room", the other usages I've never heard of, but it is Wilkinson, so it is correct. I think "kamar" comes from the Dutch "kamer" = "a room".

The suffix "an" could have been used to indicate something associated with a room, but not a room. For example, "bangun" is to "wake up, to get up", but "bangunan" is a building: something that has been raised up.

I believe we can now forget all about dry seasons.

In respect of "tilan/tilang". The tilan fish has a habit of hiding itself in river weeds and mud.

Based on this new information I'd put my money on "tilang kamaran" being a humorous reference to a place where the tilang hides. The word tilang also being a humorous reference to the sword.

I do not know Dyaks, but it would surprise me greatly if they did not have a sense of humour at least as well developed, probably more so, than any other people.

[Mytribalworld]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Interesting.

So we are talking about the scabbard, not talking about the sword, and the name of the scabbard is tilang kamaran.

Kamaran comes from the root "kamar", now commonly understood as "a room".

In Classical Malay there are several meanings for "kamar":- a room, a cabin, an upstairs room; a scarf, a girdle; the moon.

These were taken straight from Wilkinson, the common usage that we all know is "a room", the other usages I've never heard of, but it is Wilkinson, so it is correct. I think "kamar" comes from the Dutch "kamer" = "a room".


The suffix "an" could have been used to indicate something associated with a room, but not a room. For example, "bangun" is to "wake up, to get up", but "bangunan" is a building: something that has been raised up.

I believe we can now forget all about dry seasons.

In respect of "tilan/tilang". The tilan fish has a habit of hiding itself in river weeds and mud.

Based on this new information I'd put my money on "tilang kamaran" being a humorous reference to a place where the tilang hides. The word tilang also being a humorous reference to the sword.

I do not know Dyaks, but it would surprise me greatly if they did not have a sense of humour at least as well developed, probably more so, than any other people.

Njet the word for the whole sword is Tilang kamaran or Tilang Kamarau ( in case the curator mistyped)
I wonder if people who lived so close to nature should name a sword for warfare after a fish that hides himself in the mud it does;t sound so heroic .....

"Ilang" in stead of Tilang and " Kemari(n) " in stead of ' Kemarau or Kemaran" makes " Sword of yesterday " in other words "Sword of the past"
In case it is really "kemarau"( the dry version) than I could imagine that the owner means that nothing ever happend with the sword " the sword is still dry" there's no blood on it" But I confess that's also a little fantasy , but actually is doesn't matter so much.

Its actually more important that the type as seen on the picture has a name as that we figure out what that name it really means. Just name it TK and you're save

kind regards,

Arjan

[Ian]

Arjan:

What I am reading in your earlier post with the picture is the same interpretation as Alan has offered--the name is being applied to a sheath. The picture and description in your graphic refer to a sheath only--there is no mention of a sword in that catalog note. Alan has offered you an intriguing interpretation of what we can see in your picture, and he has pointed to the whimsical or humorous naming of it that would be in keeping with the local personality.

Do you have additional information that this term refers to a particular sword. The sword that you have added in the same posting does not seem to match the catalog description of tilang kamaran.

Ian.

Originally Posted by Mytribalworld

Njet the word for the whole sword is Tilang kamaran or Tilang Kamarau ( in case the curator mistyped)
I wonder if people who lived so close to nature should name a sword for warfare after a fish that hides himself in the mud it does;t sound so heroic .....

"Ilang" in stead of Tilang and " Kemari(n) " in stead of ' Kemarau or Kemaran" makes " Sword of yesterday " in other words "Sword of the past"
In case it is really "kemarau"( the dry version) than I could imagine that the owner means that nothing ever happend with the sword " the sword is still dry" there's no blood on it" But I confess that's also a little fantasy , but actually is doesn't matter so much.

Its actually more important that the type as seen on the picture has a name as that we figure out what that name it really means. Just name it TK and you're save

kind regards,

Arjan

[Mytribalworld]

Originally Posted by Ian

Arjan:

What I am reading in your earlier post with the picture is the same interpretation as Alan has offered--the name is being applied to a sheath. The picture and description in your graphic refer to a sheath only--there is no mention of a sword in that catalog note. Alan has offered you an intriguing interpretation of what we can see in your picture, and he has pointed to the whimsical or humorous naming of it that would be in keeping with the local personality.

Do you have additional information that this term refers to a particular sword. The sword that you have added in the same posting does not seem to match the catalog description of tilang kamaran.

Ian.

Hi Ian, here the sword what is related to the scabbard.

Arjan

[A. G. Maisey]

So "kamaran" seems to be correct.

This creates a brickwall.

In this context of a sword name, rather than a scabbard name, the words simply do not make sense. It is either specific dialect use, or a long standing error.

The answer:- field research.

[Ian]

Arjan:

I think we have exhausted your topic. Thanks for bringing to light this sword and its unusual name. Without further data, it seems we have indeed hit a "brick wall," as Alan has noted. It appears that the only reliable original observations we can find on the web are based on Robert Shelford's writings.

I have bookmarked this thread and hope we can come back to the subject when more data are available.

Regards,

Ian.

[Ian]

If there is a Dutch component to kamar, I think we can trace the Dutch word back to Latin. The Latin word for a private room or chamber is camera. This is still heard today in English when legal matters are said to be conducted in camera, or in a private room free from public scrutiny.

Ian.

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Interesting.

So we are talking about the scabbard, not talking about the sword, and the name of the scabbard is tilang kamaran.

Kamaran comes from the root "kamar", now commonly understood as "a room".

In Classical Malay there are several meanings for "kamar":- a room, a cabin, an upstairs room; a scarf, a girdle; the moon.

These were taken straight from Wilkinson, the common usage that we all know is "a room", the other usages I've never heard of, but it is Wilkinson, so it is correct. I think "kamar" comes from the Dutch "kamer" = "a room".

The suffix "an" could have been used to indicate something associated with a room, but not a room. For example, "bangun" is to "wake up, to get up", but "bangunan" is a building: something that has been raised up.

I believe we can now forget all about dry seasons.

In respect of "tilan/tilang". The tilan fish has a habit of hiding itself in river weeds and mud.

Based on this new information I'd put my money on "tilang kamaran" being a humorous reference to a place where the tilang hides. The word tilang also being a humorous reference to the sword.

I do not know Dyaks, but it would surprise me greatly if they did not have a sense of humour at least as well developed, probably more so, than any other people.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yep, we can blame that hated Latin for much.

In Classical Malay, "kamera" is a ship's cabin; in Italian a "camera" is a hotel room; Javanese also uses "kamar" for room; then we have the English camera, which is essentially a small room --- ie, small enclosed space --- and of course Ian's "in camera". Actually, the Oxford on Historical Principles devotes around 3 inches of column space to the word "camera" and its derivatives, and I need a magnifying glass to read the print.

No wonder I hated Latin so much 60 odd years ago.

As for the "kemarin" suggestion, well, yes, it does have the same vowels and consonants, but spoken, it has a sound nothing at all like "kamaran".

Personally, I feel that we may have gone as far as it is possible to go in this matter, what is really needed now is somebody who can speak the language, who can live within the society, and who understands the culture. This person could then dedicate a large part of his life to getting at the real guts of the matter. In other words:- dedicated field research, in my experience, its the only thing that really works.

[Ian]

Arjan:

Well, I get to partly answer my own question.

... Do you have additional information that this term refers to a particular sword? ...

I have come across a footnote (see attached) in the following reference:

Shelford R. An Illustrated Catalogue of the Ethnographic Collection of the Sarawak Museum: Part I Musical Instruments. Journal of the Straits Branch of the Royal Asiatic Society, vol. 40, p.2. June, 1904.

The footnote implies that the tilang kamarau was indeed a sword of relatively recent origin (circa 1900) and was quite common at that time. Furthermore, the note suggests that this sword may have been a sabre similar to a parang niabor.

Ian

[A. G. Maisey]

deleted