unusual african dagger covered in cowrie shells

Ferguson · 7th April 2019, 03:20 PM

Could it be a Bou Saada/Saadi or Khodmi from Algeria that has been decorated with the shells? The blade has almost a flyssa shape.

Not my area of expertise. Wait, I have no expertise!

Steve

Sajen · 7th April 2019, 07:00 PM

Yes, it's a bou saadi from Algeria like Steve stated. There are other blades from Algeria covered with shells, do a little bit search here and you will find similar knives.

Regards,
Detlef

Jim McDougall · 7th April 2019, 07:11 PM

While I too claim no expertise, I can easily bang away on this Fisher-Price keyboard and find stuff online. Steve is right, the character of the blade here is of flyssa form, and the general size puts it in the 'khodmi' knife range.

The shells are of course West African cowries, which were used until early 20th century as currency in those regions. While replaced by French currencies, the natives still maintained the amuletic properties of these shells. The markings on flyssa blades are also typically talismanic so the combining of these shells and this blade render this knife, Algerian and West African elements, somewhere in the Mali sphere. I would say 20th c. probably early.

Kubur · 7th April 2019, 07:33 PM

Hi
It's a flyssa knife
I don't think it has to do with bou saidi or khodmi knives... There are no evidences for it.
To be sure you have to remove the leather to see the original hilt and scabbard.
Even the shape of the scabbard sheath looks like the flyssa ones.
For an unknown reason the knife was embellished in Senegal with Cowries probably in the 20th c, but the flyssa knife is probably earlier end of 19th c.
Kubur

Jim McDougall · 7th April 2019, 08:19 PM

It does seem like when we enter into these 'hybrid' type pieces, which were inevitable with networks of trade routes which traversed the Sahara, and the movements of tribal groups such as the Berber confederation, the dreaded 'name game' becomes even more impossible.

So reference is made to the Khodami knife or Bou Saadi. ….and wondering what that means, I looked to Bou Saada, which is a region south of Algiers, in the M'Sila province. Often weapons are classified by regions they are common in, so that would seem logical.

But this blade is clearly that of the flyssa, the edged weapon of the tribes in Kabylia, a region in the north of Algeria, in area of Tell Atlas mountains and coastal Mediterranean.

Looking into the term Khodami, it perhaps refers to the Khodam or Djinn, Angelic guardians or helpers in Islamic Magick. This is profoundly out of my range of understanding so I cannot elaborate, but I would merely suggest that the term 'khodami' may refer to such properties in these knives.
I would leave further elucidation to the 'experts'.

So what do we call a knife with blade type and other features of the Kabyle flyssa, but embellished with West African cowrie shells, these elements from considerably distant regions?

Here is a knife which is apparently imbued with talismanic properties of two regions and cultural differences, but joined together as a result of the diffusion of influences via probably trade and intertribal contacts.

Should we call it 'khodmi', as it carries notable talismanic character as noted, or Bou Saadi, in accord with knives of similar size from Algerian and Moroccan regions?
Or should we call it 'flyssa' with West African cowrie shells?

Its like having a 1950 Ford Tudor, and dropping in a Corvette '350' engine. Do we call it a 50 Ford; A chevy; or a Corvette?

Attached is a 'Khodmi' or Bou Saada knife. Artzi had a similar knife to that posted in the orig post with cowrie shells and described as 'flyssa knife with cowrie shells'.
Perhaps that would be most reasonable classification as the flyssa blade predominates the entirety of the knife.

chiefheadknocker · 7th April 2019, 08:40 PM

Thanks for all your replies , and for shredding some light upon it , I didn't have a clue when I bought it ,I just thought it was different , I cant see it being very practical with all the shells , I wondered if it was a tourist piece but the blade does look quite well made

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 8th April 2019, 12:52 AM

Please See http://atkinson-swords.com/collection-by-type/khodmi/ AND https://wilderness-safaris.com/blog/...frican-culture AND place COWRIE SHELLS into search and view the vast array of details>

Martin Lubojacky · 8th April 2019, 04:53 PM

Cowrie shells has been delivered from "Indian Ocean countries" to Africa, especially to Subsaharan Africa, for a very long period of time - till now. Currently they are predominantly used from decorative reasons and -- to attract tourists/buyers. This could also be the case of this dagger with the flyssa style blade.

Sajen · 9th April 2019, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Attached is a 'Khodmi' or Bou Saada knife.

Hello Jim,

this don't look like a khodmi but like a Corsican dagger!? I am surprised that nobody has noticed this until now.

Regards,
Detlef

Kubur · 9th April 2019, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Jim,

this don't look like a khodmi but like a Corsican dagger!? I am surprised that nobody has noticed this until now.

Regards,
Detlef

I was thinking that Jim did it on purpose to push the discussion on the khodmi
as nobody reacted Jim opened a specific thread...
Jim?

Jim McDougall · 9th April 2019, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

I was thinking that Jim did it on purpose to push the discussion on the khodmi
as nobody reacted Jim opened a specific thread...
Jim?

LOL! Kubur you rascal, you know me too well

Actually I did not notice this at first and was pulling a pic out of Pininterest pretty randomly, and this was in the mix. When I was privately advised this was probably the Corsican brother, I thought I'd just leave it, pretty much to see if anyone else noticed. Detlef astutely did.
I hadn't thought of the 'khodmi' matter until after that, but after I did some research began to wonder about this 'other' term for 'Bou Saadi' knives, and started a new thread so as not to derail this one.

Also, in my research I found that the Corsican and Genwi 'vendetta' knives were noted as a possible influence on these 'Bou Saadi' types, so the connection seemed viable.

Just as Detlef observed, he was surprised nobody had noticed this faux pas, I was surprised that nobody over the past years had questioned the 'other' term for the Bou Saadi knives. ….it seemed worth a thread of its own.

Thanks guys for the observations, very astute indeed on all counts.

7th April 2019, 08:19 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	It does seem like when we enter into these 'hybrid' type pieces, which were inevitable with networks of trade routes which traversed the Sahara, and the movements of tribal groups such as the Berber confederation, the dreaded 'name game' becomes even more impossible. So reference is made to the Khodami knife or Bou Saadi. ….and wondering what that means, I looked to Bou Saada, which is a region south of Algiers, in the M'Sila province. Often weapons are classified by regions they are common in, so that would seem logical. But this blade is clearly that of the flyssa, the edged weapon of the tribes in Kabylia, a region in the north of Algeria, in area of Tell Atlas mountains and coastal Mediterranean. Looking into the term Khodami, it perhaps refers to the Khodam or Djinn, Angelic guardians or helpers in Islamic Magick. This is profoundly out of my range of understanding so I cannot elaborate, but I would merely suggest that the term 'khodami' may refer to such properties in these knives. I would leave further elucidation to the 'experts'. So what do we call a knife with blade type and other features of the Kabyle flyssa, but embellished with West African cowrie shells, these elements from considerably distant regions? Here is a knife which is apparently imbued with talismanic properties of two regions and cultural differences, but joined together as a result of the diffusion of influences via probably trade and intertribal contacts. Should we call it 'khodmi', as it carries notable talismanic character as noted, or Bou Saadi, in accord with knives of similar size from Algerian and Moroccan regions? Or should we call it 'flyssa' with West African cowrie shells? Its like having a 1950 Ford Tudor, and dropping in a Corvette '350' engine. Do we call it a 50 Ford; A chevy; or a Corvette? Attached is a 'Khodmi' or Bou Saada knife. Artzi had a similar knife to that posted in the orig post with cowrie shells and described as 'flyssa knife with cowrie shells'. Perhaps that would be most reasonable classification as the flyssa blade predominates the entirety of the knife. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 7th April 2019 at 08:35 PM.

8th April 2019, 12:52 AM	#7
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Please See http://atkinson-swords.com/collection-by-type/khodmi/ AND https://wilderness-safaris.com/blog/...frican-culture AND place COWRIE SHELLS into search and view the vast array of details> Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 8th April 2019 at 01:08 AM.

7th April 2019, 03:20 PM	#1
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	Could it be a Bou Saada/Saadi or Khodmi from Algeria that has been decorated with the shells? The blade has almost a flyssa shape. Not my area of expertise. Wait, I have no expertise! Steve

7th April 2019, 07:00 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,563	Yes, it's a bou saadi from Algeria like Steve stated. There are other blades from Algeria covered with shells, do a little bit search here and you will find similar knives. Regards, Detlef

7th April 2019, 07:11 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	While I too claim no expertise, I can easily bang away on this Fisher-Price keyboard and find stuff online. Steve is right, the character of the blade here is of flyssa form, and the general size puts it in the 'khodmi' knife range. The shells are of course West African cowries, which were used until early 20th century as currency in those regions. While replaced by French currencies, the natives still maintained the amuletic properties of these shells. The markings on flyssa blades are also typically talismanic so the combining of these shells and this blade render this knife, Algerian and West African elements, somewhere in the Mali sphere. I would say 20th c. probably early.

7th April 2019, 07:33 PM	#4
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi It's a flyssa knife I don't think it has to do with bou saidi or khodmi knives... There are no evidences for it. To be sure you have to remove the leather to see the original hilt and scabbard. Even the shape of the scabbard sheath looks like the flyssa ones. For an unknown reason the knife was embellished in Senegal with Cowries probably in the 20th c, but the flyssa knife is probably earlier end of 19th c. Kubur

7th April 2019, 08:40 PM	#6
chiefheadknocker Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 143	Thanks for all your replies , and for shredding some light upon it , I didn't have a clue when I bought it ,I just thought it was different , I cant see it being very practical with all the shells , I wondered if it was a tourist piece but the blade does look quite well made

8th April 2019, 04:53 PM	#8
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 836	Cowrie shells has been delivered from "Indian Ocean countries" to Africa, especially to Subsaharan Africa, for a very long period of time - till now. Currently they are predominantly used from decorative reasons and -- to attract tourists/buyers. This could also be the case of this dagger with the flyssa style blade.