Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11th November 2020, 09:38 AM   #1
Anthony G.
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 457
Default Hole symbol

What is the purpose of the hole?
Attached Images
 
Anthony G. is offline  
Old 11th November 2020, 01:57 PM   #2
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,145
Default

See "What do the Holes mean?"

Mine has three.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by kronckew; 11th November 2020 at 02:10 PM.
kronckew is offline  
Old 11th November 2020, 04:23 PM   #3
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,012
Default

Anthony, since this is not keris related i am moving it to the Ethno Forum. Though i do believe this topic was pretty well covered in the thread Wayne linked to. I believe you can find numerous answers to your question these days, but i also believe that for the most part they are beliefs, not facts, and that 50 years ago most of these beliefs probably had not been "invented" yet.
David is online now  
Old 11th November 2020, 07:43 PM   #4
Amuk Murugul
Member
 
Amuk Murugul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben
Posts: 457
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony G.
What is the purpose of the hole?
Hullo Anthony!

This may be of some use:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...37&postcount=2

note the bit on 'mata/eyelet' and 'an anomaly'.

Best,
Amuk Murugul is offline  
Old 12th November 2020, 12:52 AM   #5
Anthony G.
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 457
Default

many thanks to all.
Anthony G. is offline  
Old 14th November 2020, 01:52 AM   #6
shayde78
Member
 
shayde78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 442
Default

I think they're called speed holes. They make it go faster.
There's an explanatory video here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G3ja6Hn8ps4
shayde78 is offline  
Old 14th November 2020, 04:20 PM   #7
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,145
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by shayde78
I think they're called speed holes. They make it go faster.
There's an explanatory video here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G3ja6Hn8ps4
A great Scientist, Theodore Sturgeon, wrote a short article on the reason the perforation area of toilet paper is stronger than the perforated area. His experiments varied the dimensions and sequencing and found they got stronger in certain specific configurations as the amount of material went to zero. Ultimately he discovered how to turn this into an impenetrable force field, made of nothing as well as infinitely strong projectiles that could be propelled at light speed and penetrate almost anything (except a 'nothing' forcefield). The procedure has been censored everywhere and a copy of his dissertation cannot be located online, and further research into this phenomena has been made illegal.

I therefore postulate the holes in the Kujang are there to increase the strength of the item. I of course provide "Nothing" as proof.

...but we digress, and should return to the original topic before the Government come around looking at our torn toilet paper.
kronckew is offline  
Old 16th November 2020, 08:43 PM   #8
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,012
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
A great Scientist, Theodore Sturgeon, wrote a short article on the reason the perforation area of toilet paper is stronger than the perforated area. His experiments varied the dimensions and sequencing and found they got stronger in certain specific configurations as the amount of material went to zero. Ultimately he discovered how to turn this into an impenetrable force field, made of nothing as well as infinitely strong projectiles that could be propelled at light speed and penetrate almost anything (except a 'nothing' forcefield). The procedure has been censored everywhere and a copy of his dissertation cannot be located online, and further research into this phenomena has been made illegal.

I therefore postulate the holes in the Kujang are there to increase the strength of the item. I of course provide "Nothing" as proof.

...but we digress, and should return to the original topic before the Government come around looking at our torn toilet paper.
Wayne, i do, of course realize that you are being funny here, but as a huge fan of Theodore Sturgeon i do feel somewhat obliged to point out that he was a great science FICTION writer, not scientist. LOL!
Carry on...
David is online now  
Old 17th November 2020, 07:53 AM   #9
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,145
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Wayne, I do, of course realize that you are being funny here, but as a huge fan of Theodore Sturgeon I do feel somewhat obliged to point out that he was a great science FICTION writer, not scientist. LOL!
Carry on...
Being a SCIFI fan myself, I know he was not a scientist, but I converted him for the dramatic purposes of my little fictional monument to him. I imagine many of our younger readers sadly have never heard of him. One of my favourites, Isaac Asimov, was, and he discovered Thiotimoline, the theoretical 4th dimensional chemical that dissolves just BEFORE you pour water on it. But doesn't if you do not actually pour.

But we digress, though we could theoretically use a bit of Thiotimoline power to return back on track. Anyway, I blame hayde78. . However, his theory IS plausible, My automobile has a large hole in front of its turbocharger that allows it to go faster if I floor it. The engine doesn't go fast at all if I plug that hole.

And there are precedents. 'The Book of Ely', a post apocalyptic film with sound SCIFI principles has a Machete with a series of Holes near the spine and it's blind wielder, Saint Denzel of Washington, certainly takes advantage of them to slash faster.

Last edited by kronckew; 17th November 2020 at 08:17 AM.
kronckew is offline  
Old 17th November 2020, 12:27 PM   #10
Richard G
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 400
Default

I'm probably going to get warned for being off topic, but it reminds me of how p*ssed off the French were when Dave Brailsford told them our cycling success at the Olympics was because of the 'special roundness' of our wheels.
Best wishes
Richard
Richard G is offline  
Old 17th November 2020, 03:30 PM   #11
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,145
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard G
I'm probably going to get warned for being off topic, but it reminds me of how p*ssed off the French were when Dave Brailsford told them our cycling success at the Olympics was because of the 'special roundness' of our wheels.
Best wishes
Richard
But it was true! Plus the frictionless bearings helped...

...and we seem to have gone permanently off the topic rails.
kronckew is offline  
Old 17th November 2020, 04:04 PM   #12
gp
Member
 
gp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 636
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
Being a SCIFI fan myself, I know he was not a scientist, but I converted him for the dramatic purposes of my little fictional monument to him. I imagine many of our younger readers sadly have never heard of him. One of my favourites, Isaac Asimov, was, and he discovered Thiotimoline, the theoretical 4th dimensional chemical that dissolves just BEFORE you pour water on it. But doesn't if you do not actually pour.

But we digress, though we could theoretically use a bit of Thiotimoline power to return back on track. Anyway, I blame hayde78. . However, his theory IS plausible, My automobile has a large hole in front of its turbocharger that allows it to go faster if I floor it. The engine doesn't go fast at all if I plug that hole.

And there are precedents. 'The Book of Ely', a post apocalyptic film with sound SCIFI principles has a Machete with a series of Holes near the spine and it's blind wielder, Saint Denzel of Washington, certainly takes advantage of them to slash faster.
What ‘bout Michael Moorcock’s “Eternal Champion” cyclus with his Stormbringer and Black sword ...Elric of Melniboné, Hawkmoon, von Bek
gp is offline  
Old 17th November 2020, 04:51 PM   #13
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,012
Default

Gentlemen, i do realize that there is not really a great deal of verifiable information available to us from the time these blades were in actual use. Many theories about the significances of these holes have been floated in modern times and, of course, there are adherents to these theories who will believe that these modern ideas are correct to the original intent of the makers. It would be as difficult to disprove these theories as it is to prove them. That said, it does seem just a little bit unlikely that holes would have been added to a weapon of this relatively small size in order to increase the speed by which it could be handled, no?
I think this might be a good time to get back on topic, if indeed anyone has any useful insights to add.
David is online now  
Old 17th November 2020, 04:53 PM   #14
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,145
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gp
What ‘bout Michael Moorcock’s “Eternal Champion” cyclus with his Stormbringer and Black sword ...Elric of Melniboné, Hawkmoon, von Bek
Definitely. I have Stormbringer's sister, also a black sword. She only reveals her name to those whose souls she eats. (Her mother was a burmese demon). She has a bad habit of sneaking out when I'm not looking, devouring a few souls, then sneaking back like nothing happened. I found out her name by accident and thus gained power over her. She doesn't have a cross guard because she's never needed one.

Edited:
Oops - missed the last Mod post by David. let's jump back on topic. I will if all y'all do.
Attached Images
 
kronckew is offline  
Old 18th November 2020, 05:21 PM   #15
Rafngard
Member
 
Rafngard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Minneapolis,MN
Posts: 321
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gp
What ‘bout Michael Moorcock’s “Eternal Champion” cyclus with his Stormbringer and Black sword ...Elric of Melniboné, Hawkmoon, von Bek
This is perhaps both on and off topic, but I was recently struck by how Stormbringer and Mournblade bare some resemblance to Keris and/or other Tosan aji, and wondered if Moorcock might have been inspired by such.

Consider the following characteristics of two swords:

1) Black blades
Warangan stained?

2) Bareing meaningful patterns
"Runes" per Moorcock, but why not Pamor?

3) Having an intelligence/soul
Khodam/isi anyone?

4) Soul drinking
I believe it is a traditional Malay belief (mentioned in Spirit of Wood) that keris drink the semangat of anyone they injure.

Something fun to think about.

Have fun,
Leif
Rafngard is online now  
Old 18th November 2020, 11:22 PM   #16
gp
Member
 
gp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 636
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafngard
This is perhaps both on and off topic, but I was recently struck by how Stormbringer and Mournblade bare some resemblance to Keris and/or other Tosan aji, and wondered if Moorcock might have been inspired by such.

Consider the following characteristics of two swords:

1) Black blades
Warangan stained?

2) Bareing meaningful patterns
"Runes" per Moorcock, but why not Pamor?

3) Having an intelligence/soul
Khodam/isi anyone?

4) Soul drinking
I believe it is a traditional Malay belief (mentioned in Spirit of Wood) that keris drink the semangat of anyone they injure.

Something fun to think about.

Have fun,
Leif
indeed there has been some inspiration in the late 60ies and 70ies by and from travellers to Africa, Arabia and Asia and their stories and cultures to the likes of Moorcock and Hawkwind / Hawklords (which my friends from Hawkwind / Hawklords confirmed)

Hence the popularity of The Marakesh Express and stories about the Barbary privateers, One Thousand and One Nights next to Hindu tales / Hindu mythological wars and obviously the cold weapons involved.

Although David was perhaps correct with regards to the off topic part, perhaps with a little patience I could have explained the Eternal Champion Cyclus in more detail having their roots in ancient cultures and henceforth the cold weapons from those books could be confirmed by real good scolars to have been derived or partial copies from those Middle Eastern and Asian weapons.

Like the 2 added pics of a weapon ( a cabang ) I first got trained 45 years ago clearly has influenced the Stormbringer blade design...
Attached Images
  
gp is offline  
Old 19th November 2020, 10:10 AM   #17
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,145
Default

The sai is found all over in martial arts for defence against swords and is used as more of an impact weapon offensively, tho it is sometimes portrayed in films as being sharp. It is similar to the Japanese Jitte, also used as a Police Badge for officials in the time of the samurai.

Mine:
Attached Images
 
kronckew is offline  
Old 19th November 2020, 06:19 PM   #18
Rafngard
Member
 
Rafngard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Minneapolis,MN
Posts: 321
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gp
Like the 2 added pics of a weapon ( a cabang ) I first got trained 45 years ago clearly has influenced the Stormbringer blade design...
"Cabang" is the term used in pencak silat, right?

I'm asking in part, because I've been participating in an online silat class presently with a Bruneian (and thus Malay) teacher who calls this fascinating weapon a "tekpi."

Have fun,
Leif
Rafngard is online now  
Old 19th November 2020, 08:17 PM   #19
gp
Member
 
gp's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 636
Default

.

Last edited by gp; 20th November 2020 at 07:49 AM.
gp is offline  
Old 20th November 2020, 01:58 AM   #20
Ian
Vikingsword Staff
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 4,007
Exclamation Moderator's comment

Guys,

We have strayed far and wide from the original topic of this thread: the holes in kudi/kujang. Some digression into the fantasy sword arena has been tolerated, but modern fantasy weapons are not the focus of this forum. It appears that discussion of the original topic has been exhausted for now, so let's allow this thread to rest for a while.

Salamat.

Ian
Ian is offline  
Old 23rd November 2020, 07:46 PM   #21
Ian
Vikingsword Staff
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 4,007
Default

Enough. Thread closed.
Ian is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:19 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.