Samoan club gamble.

Tim Simmons · 1st December 2010, 09:26 PM

Just got this. Very poor pictures, bit of a gamble. The damage is also a little off puting, but heck one in perfect condition would go for a Kings ransom. When I researched and found clubs of this type in quite prestigous collections with roughly the same damage. I thought luck be a lady tonight and I think she was.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Picture from "Samoan arts & artists"

This link is good too.

http://www.imj.org.il/imagine/collec...itemNum=342163

Lew · 1st December 2010, 09:57 PM

Tim

That is a big gamble based on those pics but there is one pic that shows good patina.

Good Luck

Lew

VANDOO · 2nd December 2010, 04:39 AM

LOOKS LIKE A GOOD EXAMPLE OF THE TYPE WITH ATTRACTIVE CARVING. IT IS TYPICAL OF THESE CLUBS LOSING TEETH DUE TO THE KIND OF MAHOGANY USED TO MAKE THEM. I HAVE A FEW EXAMPLES WITH MISSING TEETH AS WELL. MINE ARE MOSTLY AROUND 1920'S TO 1930'S. IF I WERE MAKEING A CLUB TO TAKE INTO BATTLE I WOULD PREFER A HARDER MORE DURABLE WOOD AS THIS WOOD BREAKS VERY EASILY BUT IS SOFTER AND EASIER TO CARVE. IT MAKES ME WONDER IF THEY ARE FOR CEREMONY OR SALE TO THOSE WHO TRAVEL. PERHAPS THEY PREFERRED TO LEAVE THE POINTS BROKEN OFF AND STICKING INTO THE ENEMY.

KuKulzA28 · 2nd December 2010, 08:52 AM

A good resource for Samoan material things can be found [here].

[Here] is their article on nifo'oti type clubs.

It would seem as if the wooden nifo'oti had less practical combat value than the metal bush-knives that were all the called the same... If I am not mistaken, Samoan fire-dancers still use blunt bladed flaming nifo'oti for their fire-dances. The bush knives can still be found in Fiji I think, but I have never been to Fiji and I am no expert.

Tim Simmons · 2nd December 2010, 04:54 PM

Yes a massive gamble

.

It will be here soon. Provides us with a bit of entertainment

But as Lew says there are pictures that hint, and in my mind quite strongly to a good age and patina. We will know soon. In the meantime here is some more information on Samoan clubs from "Samoan Art & Artists, University of Hawaii Press" The hair spliting on the function of the club does not bother me. One will know if made to knock brains out as soon as it is in your hands if you have had any form of martial arts or weapons training. I hope I can upload these extracts in the right order. Do look at the link about "Te Rangi Hiroa"

http://www.natlib.govt.nz/collection...ter-henry-buck

Tim Simmons · 6th December 2010, 07:33 PM

Lady luck has been most obliging, smothering me with her charm. Not only is it very pleasant but arrived just as I got out of the car on my return from walking the dogs.

The pictures are not the most subtle but it is dark outside. Huge old club. You can see considerable wear to the distall end. Is that through combat or dance? I could believe these are ceremonial dance clubs but also if used with two hands and having had a life spent swinging clubs they would also be powerful weapons. All I can say is that I would not want to be hit by either side of the club.

Tim Simmons · 6th December 2010, 08:04 PM

Just had a thought about the damaged teeth seen on these clubs. It is possible that it is nothing to do with an idea of weakness in combat but possibly all to do with damage after collection, knocking around as a simple curio?

Atlantia · 6th December 2010, 09:02 PM

Thats a hell of a thing. Can we see it 'in hand'?

Emanuel · 6th December 2010, 11:51 PM

Nice club Tim!

Any chance of some of these being a development of the shark-tooth swords or vice versa, instead of whaling blades? This club looks a lot like a large jaw-bone...albeig not shark.

Emanuel

VANDOO · 7th December 2010, 02:28 AM

CONGRADULATIONS TIM THATS A NICE ONE IT HAS GOOD PATINA AND WEAR AND IT LOOKS LIKE THE MISSING TEETH HAVE BEEN GONE A LONG TIME.
I HAVE ACCIDENTLY BROKEN TEETH OFF ONE I OWN WHEN PUTTING IT INTO A STORAGE RACK AND WAS SURPRIZED AT HOW EASY IT WAS TO DO. VERY LITTLE FORCE WAS REQUIRED AS THE WOOD GRAIN RUNS IN A DIRECTION THAT SPLITS EASY ON THIS TYPE OF WOOD. PERHAPS ON THE ISLANDS WHERE THESE ARE MADE THERE ARE VERY FEW TREES STRAIGHT AND LARGE ENOUGH TO MAKE THIS SIZE AND FORM OF CLUB SO IT WAS THE ONLY LOGICAL CHOICE. OR PERHAPS THIS TREE HAD SOME SIGNIFICANCE IN SAMOAN SOCIETY SO WAS THE PREFERRED MATERIAL FOR THIS FORM OF CLUB.

I BELEAVE THIS FORM OF CLUB PREDATES CONTACT WITH EUROPEAN SOCIETY SO THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO OUTSIDE INFLUENCE IN ITS ORIGINAL FORM. THE FIRE KNIFE AND CANE KNIFE EVOLVED FROM THIS FORM NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. UNFORTUNATELY THEY LEFT OFF THE TEETH ON THE STEEL KNIVES BUT IT WOULD BEEN VERY COOL IF THEY HAD LEFT THEM ON.

Tim Simmons · 7th December 2010, 06:19 PM

These pictures give some idea of the size. I could not make decide on what was my best side, flat agianst my face.

As to the idea of a blubber knife origin, I have my doubts. the form could equally come abstracted from nature. The traditional polynesian sail is known as "Crab claw sail" If one looked hard enough on a whaling ship one might find something of similar shape to the crab claw sail. The notion of a bubber knife origin reinforces concepts of progress on contact with western culture and weekness in the native.

Atlantia · 7th December 2010, 06:29 PM

LOL, excellent Tim! you look kinda scary peeking round it like that!
Edit: Dead scary in fact

It's a great thing mate. Nice to get an idea of scale too.

1st December 2010, 09:26 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Samoan club gamble. Just got this. Very poor pictures, bit of a gamble. The damage is also a little off puting, but heck one in perfect condition would go for a Kings ransom. When I researched and found clubs of this type in quite prestigous collections with roughly the same damage. I thought luck be a lady tonight and I think she was. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...=STRK:MEWAX:IT Picture from "Samoan arts & artists" This link is good too. http://www.imj.org.il/imagine/collec...itemNum=342163 Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 1st December 2010 at 09:35 PM. Reason: spelling

2nd December 2010, 04:54 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Yes a massive gamble . It will be here soon. Provides us with a bit of entertainment But as Lew says there are pictures that hint, and in my mind quite strongly to a good age and patina. We will know soon. In the meantime here is some more information on Samoan clubs from "Samoan Art & Artists, University of Hawaii Press" The hair spliting on the function of the club does not bother me. One will know if made to knock brains out as soon as it is in your hands if you have had any form of martial arts or weapons training. I hope I can upload these extracts in the right order. Do look at the link about "Te Rangi Hiroa" http://www.natlib.govt.nz/collection...ter-henry-buck Attached Images

6th December 2010, 07:33 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Lady luck has been most obliging, smothering me with her charm. Not only is it very pleasant but arrived just as I got out of the car on my return from walking the dogs. The pictures are not the most subtle but it is dark outside. Huge old club. You can see considerable wear to the distall end. Is that through combat or dance? I could believe these are ceremonial dance clubs but also if used with two hands and having had a life spent swinging clubs they would also be powerful weapons. All I can say is that I would not want to be hit by either side of the club. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 6th December 2010 at 07:55 PM. Reason: SPELLING Spelling

7th December 2010, 06:19 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	These pictures give some idea of the size. I could not make decide on what was my best side, flat agianst my face. As to the idea of a blubber knife origin, I have my doubts. the form could equally come abstracted from nature. The traditional polynesian sail is known as "Crab claw sail" If one looked hard enough on a whaling ship one might find something of similar shape to the crab claw sail. The notion of a bubber knife origin reinforces concepts of progress on contact with western culture and weekness in the native. Attached Images

1st December 2010, 09:57 PM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Tim That is a big gamble based on those pics but there is one pic that shows good patina. Good Luck Lew

2nd December 2010, 04:39 AM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	LOOKS LIKE A GOOD EXAMPLE OF THE TYPE WITH ATTRACTIVE CARVING. IT IS TYPICAL OF THESE CLUBS LOSING TEETH DUE TO THE KIND OF MAHOGANY USED TO MAKE THEM. I HAVE A FEW EXAMPLES WITH MISSING TEETH AS WELL. MINE ARE MOSTLY AROUND 1920'S TO 1930'S. IF I WERE MAKEING A CLUB TO TAKE INTO BATTLE I WOULD PREFER A HARDER MORE DURABLE WOOD AS THIS WOOD BREAKS VERY EASILY BUT IS SOFTER AND EASIER TO CARVE. IT MAKES ME WONDER IF THEY ARE FOR CEREMONY OR SALE TO THOSE WHO TRAVEL. PERHAPS THEY PREFERRED TO LEAVE THE POINTS BROKEN OFF AND STICKING INTO THE ENEMY.

2nd December 2010, 08:52 AM	#4
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	A good resource for Samoan material things can be found [here]. [Here] is their article on nifo'oti type clubs. It would seem as if the wooden nifo'oti had less practical combat value than the metal bush-knives that were all the called the same... If I am not mistaken, Samoan fire-dancers still use blunt bladed flaming nifo'oti for their fire-dances. The bush knives can still be found in Fiji I think, but I have never been to Fiji and I am no expert.

6th December 2010, 08:04 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	Just had a thought about the damaged teeth seen on these clubs. It is possible that it is nothing to do with an idea of weakness in combat but possibly all to do with damage after collection, knocking around as a simple curio?

6th December 2010, 09:02 PM	#8
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Thats a hell of a thing. Can we see it 'in hand'?

6th December 2010, 11:51 PM	#9
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Nice club Tim! Any chance of some of these being a development of the shark-tooth swords or vice versa, instead of whaling blades? This club looks a lot like a large jaw-bone...albeig not shark. Emanuel

7th December 2010, 02:28 AM	#10
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	CONGRADULATIONS TIM THATS A NICE ONE IT HAS GOOD PATINA AND WEAR AND IT LOOKS LIKE THE MISSING TEETH HAVE BEEN GONE A LONG TIME. I HAVE ACCIDENTLY BROKEN TEETH OFF ONE I OWN WHEN PUTTING IT INTO A STORAGE RACK AND WAS SURPRIZED AT HOW EASY IT WAS TO DO. VERY LITTLE FORCE WAS REQUIRED AS THE WOOD GRAIN RUNS IN A DIRECTION THAT SPLITS EASY ON THIS TYPE OF WOOD. PERHAPS ON THE ISLANDS WHERE THESE ARE MADE THERE ARE VERY FEW TREES STRAIGHT AND LARGE ENOUGH TO MAKE THIS SIZE AND FORM OF CLUB SO IT WAS THE ONLY LOGICAL CHOICE. OR PERHAPS THIS TREE HAD SOME SIGNIFICANCE IN SAMOAN SOCIETY SO WAS THE PREFERRED MATERIAL FOR THIS FORM OF CLUB. I BELEAVE THIS FORM OF CLUB PREDATES CONTACT WITH EUROPEAN SOCIETY SO THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NO OUTSIDE INFLUENCE IN ITS ORIGINAL FORM. THE FIRE KNIFE AND CANE KNIFE EVOLVED FROM THIS FORM NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. UNFORTUNATELY THEY LEFT OFF THE TEETH ON THE STEEL KNIVES BUT IT WOULD BEEN VERY COOL IF THEY HAD LEFT THEM ON.

7th December 2010, 06:29 PM	#12
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	LOL, excellent Tim! you look kinda scary peeking round it like that! Edit: Dead scary in fact It's a great thing mate. Nice to get an idea of scale too.