Napoleonic Period British Artillery Short Sword Initials

kronckew · 8th November 2019, 05:50 PM

Just acquired, another Lion head Artillery sword, appears to be German, slightly recurved blade. Scabbard needs some TLC to re-attach the chape. Will pick up early next week, not sure about any markings yet. They seem to get around...

corrado26 · 8th November 2019, 06:13 PM

This is the Bavarian Artillery Seitengewehr 1892.

kronckew · 8th November 2019, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

This is the Bavarian Artillery Seitengewehr 1892.

Thanks, that's what I was hoping. Worth a bit more than I paid for mine I gather.

To personalise it a bit: He looks just like me at that age! (kinda blurry pic)

Jim McDougall · 8th November 2019, 06:40 PM

These cast iron hilts did become more widely used by other ranks units in the latter 18th century as this means of production made large volumes of munitions grade weaponry better facilitated.
The 'lion head' was popular as a pommel style throughout Europe from much earlier of course, and these hilts seem to have been incorporated into many other ranks of varied units of artillery or support units. Specialized units such as sappers, miners etc.

With our two lionhead swords in discussion, as I have suggested, these appear to both be of what appears to be a French pattern, and in Revolutionary War period context. While the swords themselves seem the same, and probably from the same production source (probably in France? we need more confirmation of that classification). ….these MARKINGS are not from the production source......they appear to be FIELD MARKINGS.

These are inventory marks which were typically applied in ersatz manner by less than skilled individuals charged with that duty while on campaign.
The styling and inconsistent use of letters, acronyms, superscript and separations are characteristic of the mélange of units in the Mexican army fashioned by Santa Anna et al.

The Revolutionary War (period) classification is simply a broad context loosely applied (typically) to weapons appearing of that period. It does not geographically signify they have that provenance. A 19th c. sabre found in Alabama is not necessarily Civil War nor Confederate, it is plausibly suggested so.

These two swords APPEAR to have become used in what I deem Mexican context in some manner about 1820s+ and marked as previously suggested. Naturally this is suggestion pending further research but I feel compelled at the idea at this point.

The meaning of the letters is difficult without better rosters of Mexican units, to determine what they might represent. While the R for real is tempting, it does not seem a character used in Mexican context in unit markings. In most cases it seems for Regimento, much as the C for compania.

The No followed by number seems to be a rack number where applicable, I cannot make out the rest of the inscription on the second sword.

With regard to the estimation of unit designations I have described in Mexican context, most of the notes I had mentioned were from various buttons and badge or accoutrement devices which were excavated in situ from sites in Mexico. As noted, rather than systemic designations there were often dramatic variations in unit identifications by letters and numbers. In many cases they were for places or names significant for origin or commanders etc.

8th November 2019, 05:50 PM	#1
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,152	Just acquired, another Lion head Artillery sword, appears to be German, slightly recurved blade. Scabbard needs some TLC to re-attach the chape. Will pick up early next week, not sure about any markings yet. They seem to get around... Attached Images

8th November 2019, 06:13 PM	#2
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,171	This is the Bavarian Artillery Seitengewehr 1892.

8th November 2019, 06:40 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	These cast iron hilts did become more widely used by other ranks units in the latter 18th century as this means of production made large volumes of munitions grade weaponry better facilitated. The 'lion head' was popular as a pommel style throughout Europe from much earlier of course, and these hilts seem to have been incorporated into many other ranks of varied units of artillery or support units. Specialized units such as sappers, miners etc. With our two lionhead swords in discussion, as I have suggested, these appear to both be of what appears to be a French pattern, and in Revolutionary War period context. While the swords themselves seem the same, and probably from the same production source (probably in France? we need more confirmation of that classification). ….these MARKINGS are not from the production source......they appear to be FIELD MARKINGS. These are inventory marks which were typically applied in ersatz manner by less than skilled individuals charged with that duty while on campaign. The styling and inconsistent use of letters, acronyms, superscript and separations are characteristic of the mélange of units in the Mexican army fashioned by Santa Anna et al. The Revolutionary War (period) classification is simply a broad context loosely applied (typically) to weapons appearing of that period. It does not geographically signify they have that provenance. A 19th c. sabre found in Alabama is not necessarily Civil War nor Confederate, it is plausibly suggested so. These two swords APPEAR to have become used in what I deem Mexican context in some manner about 1820s+ and marked as previously suggested. Naturally this is suggestion pending further research but I feel compelled at the idea at this point. The meaning of the letters is difficult without better rosters of Mexican units, to determine what they might represent. While the R for real is tempting, it does not seem a character used in Mexican context in unit markings. In most cases it seems for Regimento, much as the C for compania. The No followed by number seems to be a rack number where applicable, I cannot make out the rest of the inscription on the second sword. With regard to the estimation of unit designations I have described in Mexican context, most of the notes I had mentioned were from various buttons and badge or accoutrement devices which were excavated in situ from sites in Mexico. As noted, rather than systemic designations there were often dramatic variations in unit identifications by letters and numbers. In many cases they were for places or names significant for origin or commanders etc.