Persian inscription- Late 18th century Shamshir

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Rich

Dumb question: what is the difference between a shamshir and a tulwar?
I thought shamshir had straight cross-bar guards and a hook style grip. Is it area of origin; shamshir being Persian but tulwar mainly of the Indian sub-continent?
Rich

I will tell you the difference.
I suspect Kharaghdari Singh to be from Pakistan and in Pakistan swords are called shamshir and in India Tulwar.
So he is right.
It is us Westerners who are wrong...

[Rich]

So it's not a matter of the swords origin, rather the owners??
Rich

[Jens Nordlunde]

Here is another one with a gurmukhi inscription. 18th to early 19th century, probably Lahore.
According to the name game, the sword Kharaghdari Singh shows is a tulwar with a shamshir blade.

[Rich]

I think you guys are just trying to confuse a senile old geezer.

At least with Nihonto a long sword is a daito; and sub-type if it's a katana, uchikatana or tachi. Which is determined by its mountings. Much easier nomenclature.

Rich

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Rich

I think you guys are just trying to confuse a senile old geezer.

At least with Nihonto a long sword is a daito; and sub-type if it's a katana, uchikatana or tachi. Which is determined by its mountings. Much easier nomenclature.

Rich

Rich,
I would heartily dispute your self description! and note that the understanding of Nihonto in itself is a paramount achievement which frankly reaches the complicated level of a science. With this, it is quite understandable that it is very specific in classifications and nomenclature, and extremely intimidating for collectors of sharp pointy things other than these amazing Japanese swords, including me of course.

With the subject of names for tulwar, shamshir etc. while the others have given remarkable and well detailed analysis of what we have long called 'the name game' here, I will add my own views.

Tulwar is an Indian term for sword, not necessarily otherwise specified, and can be applied to not only the familiar version with 'Indo-Persian' disc pommel hilt, but sabers with shamshir style hilts. In Indian parlance, even the Native cavalry sabers of British regulation pattern may be called 'tulwars'.
The shamshir is with distinctive hilt as you describe, is of course a Persian sword, and again, a term applied widely to sabers with other style hilts as described in Persian parlance.

As Mahratt has concisely noted, description rather than term is best in accurately classifying a weapon where such questions may be at hand.

With Persian script, this was of course common with the profound influences of Persia in the courts of Northern and Mughal India, as well as Bukhara.
As Jens has illustrated, the inscribing of inside of knuckleguard seems to have been a convention popular in N. India, and with gurmukhi script as was often found in Sikh weapons.

[Rich]

Jim -

You are too kind, but thank you. Now I'm just a retired old geezer who has forgotten what he forgot.

Also thank who ever maintains the geographical index for keeping my Japanese sword site link. Unfortunately Jim Gilbert's Tsuba site is long gone. Sad as it was the best site for antique iron tsuba around. :-(

Rich

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Here is another one with a gurmukhi inscription. 18th to early 19th century, probably Lahore.
According to the name game, the sword Kharaghdari Singh shows is a tulwar with a shamshir blade.

Hello Jens,

I would call yours a Tulwar.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

According to the name game, the sword Kharaghdari Singh shows is a tulwar with a shamshir blade.

Absolutely! 200% accurate!
Although, the same can be called "shamshir with a tulwar handle"

[kronckew]

The shamshir with the Tulwar hilt has a continuously narrowing tip with no signs of a false edge or Yelman. the Tulwar hilt with a Tulwar blade has a noticeable though small straightish 'Yelman' spine where the blade remains wide almost right to the tip and the back edge appears to have at least a false edge which may be sharpened somewhat.

O course as we are mostly westerners (or at least ESL* speakers), we get everything muddled up describing stuff in a language not of the weapon's original makers/users.

* - ESL=English as a second language - (As in I speak mostly American but have also learned ESL )