Kris for comment

xasterix · 13th June 2023, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

Nice buying xasterix, and sweet blade.

Carved Sampir are not all that common... I've referenced what examples I have on file and whilst most are loosely ths profile shape, none carry the same or similar motifs.

Thanks Gavin! The carving motif is indeed interesting, hoping to get to the bottom of it

Sajen · 13th June 2023, 09:42 PM

Very nice and interesting kris! Congrats Xas.

Here a picture from the pages Kai mentioned before.

Regards,
Detlef

Ian · 14th June 2023, 08:05 AM

Xas,

On looking more closely at your pictures of the Luzon furniture and the kris scabbard, I think the plants are actually different. I've blown up both pics.

On the scabbard you can see distinct flowers, with the central ovule and three surrounding petals. There may be two different flowers represented on the scabbard if you compare the most central one with the others (pointed versus rounded leaves).

On the furniture, the three-lobed structures have no central ovule and are probably not flowers. They are multi-layered and could be seed pods or perhaps leaf buds, but not flowers. Lovely carving BTW.

I think you are looking at different botanical species in each picture.

Ian.
.

xasterix · 14th June 2023, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Xas,

On looking more closely at your pictures of the Luzon furniture and the kris scabbard, I think the plants are actually different. I've blown up both pics.

On the scabbard you can see distinct flowers, with the central ovule and three surrounding petals. There may be two different flowers represented on the scabbard if you compare the most central one with the others (pointed versus rounded leaves).

On the furniture, the three-lobed structures have no central ovule and are probably not flowers. They are multi-layered and could be seed pods or perhaps leaf buds, but not flowers. Lovely carving BTW.

I think you are looking at different botanical species in each picture.

Ian.
.

Thanks for pointing that out Ian, those are clear differences indeed. I need a botanist to crunch these depictions

kino · 15th June 2023, 03:28 PM

What an amazing find. Your intuition led you to it. I’ve glanced at that Kris several times but never thought what lay below the blades patina. Congrats.

xasterix · 16th June 2023, 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kino

What an amazing find. Your intuition led you to it. I’ve glanced at that Kris several times but never thought what lay below the blades patina. Congrats.

Thanks very much sir!

xasterix · 14th June 2023, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Very nice and interesting kris! Congrats Xas.

Here a picture from the pages Kai mentioned before.

Regards,
Detlef

Thanks very much for this Detlef! Super helpful!

Gavin Nugent · 19th June 2023, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xasterix

Thanks Gavin! The carving motif is indeed interesting, hoping to get to the bottom of it

I look at this and immediately think Sulu by the sheath profile overall... but I look at the carvings, and without any notable reference to compare to by design specifically, there is something in the manner of the carving that seems Samal to me... does anyone have good timber carving references for the Southern Sulu regions?

On the off chance that the Met holds a kris with carvings to the sheath, this might be worth a follow up.

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collec...nce&pageSize=0

xasterix · 19th June 2023, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

I look at this and immediately think Sulu by the sheath profile overall... but I look at the carvings, and without any notable reference to compare to by design specifically, there is something in the manner of the carving that seems Samal to me... does anyone have good timber carving references for the Southern Sulu regions?

On the off chance that the Met holds a kris with carvings to the sheath, this might be worth a follow up.

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collec...nce&pageSize=0

Halloo Gavin, I've been told by an elder that the carved pattern on the scabbard is non-Moro. It doesn't fall under 'ukkil' or 'okir' either, which the Sama use. Thanks and great find on the Met item- I'll try to contact them, fingers crossed!

kino · 23rd June 2023, 05:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gavin Nugent

... does anyone have good timber carving references for the Southern Sulu regions?

Gavin, Have you seen this publication?

Battara · 27th June 2023, 02:15 AM

Xasterix, I will admit that I've seen this type of ukkil before, but I have not been able to attribute it to any Moro group yet. It is unusual though.

xasterix · 27th June 2023, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Xasterix, I will admit that I've seen this type of ukkil before, but I have not been able to attribute it to any Moro group yet. It is unusual though.

Your comment tugged at my memory...there was indeed a similarly-themed scabbard in the forum before. Finally located it:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=kris+sabre

Interesting that the shape of the scabbard is the same, and the carving motif very similar.

Battara · 29th June 2023, 02:58 AM

Yes that scabbard shape like this one seems indicative of Sulu work, and the ukkil of the other scabbard also seems Sulu.

Yours - a Sulu variant? Different tribe in the region?

xasterix · 29th June 2023, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Yes that scabbard shape like this one seems indicative of Sulu work, and the ukkil of the other scabbard also seems Sulu.

Yours - a Sulu variant? Different tribe in the region?

I've been told by Sulu and Mindanao elders that the pattern is not ukkil nor okir. Non-Moro, simply put. It doesn't follow the conventions of Moro patterns.

Gavin Nugent · 2nd July 2023, 04:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kino

Gavin, Have you seen this publication?

I have not Kino. Is there good wood carving data within?

13th June 2023, 09:42 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,547	Very nice and interesting kris! Congrats Xas. Here a picture from the pages Kai mentioned before. Regards, Detlef Attached Images

14th June 2023, 08:05 AM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,041	Xas, On looking more closely at your pictures of the Luzon furniture and the kris scabbard, I think the plants are actually different. I've blown up both pics. On the scabbard you can see distinct flowers, with the central ovule and three surrounding petals. There may be two different flowers represented on the scabbard if you compare the most central one with the others (pointed versus rounded leaves). On the furniture, the three-lobed structures have no central ovule and are probably not flowers. They are multi-layered and could be seed pods or perhaps leaf buds, but not flowers. Lovely carving BTW. I think you are looking at different botanical species in each picture. Ian. . Attached Images

15th June 2023, 03:28 PM	#5
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 977	What an amazing find. Your intuition led you to it. I’ve glanced at that Kris several times but never thought what lay below the blades patina. Congrats.

27th June 2023, 02:15 AM	#11
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Xasterix, I will admit that I've seen this type of ukkil before, but I have not been able to attribute it to any Moro group yet. It is unusual though.

29th June 2023, 02:58 AM	#13
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Yes that scabbard shape like this one seems indicative of Sulu work, and the ukkil of the other scabbard also seems Sulu. Yours - a Sulu variant? Different tribe in the region?