Pawakan

Montino Bourbon · 30th September 2021, 06:55 PM

Dear Alan; My teacher, the incomparable Ustad Ali Akbar Khan, considered by many to be the greatest Indian musician of the 20th century, said, towards the end of his life that he "Was just beginning to achieve an understanding of music." You may "Not know much at all", but if I need information on a keris, as I have before, I'll gladly ask you. There's a difference between 'not knowing much at all', which is quite legitimate for you to say, and being the kind of authority that I know you to be. As for me, I'm at the level of "I like that" or "I dislike that".

A. G. Maisey · 30th September 2021, 09:48 PM

Actually Montino, I feel that "like" and "not like" is a pretty OK place to start, in fact, maybe this is a good criterion for most people.

jagabuwana · 22nd October 2021, 03:40 AM

Thank you for the encouragement, and for such a detailed and thoughtful response.

I've been digesting it since, and I should have expressed my thanks sooner.

I'd hate for this discussion to collect dust and start to adopt the scent of kretek, coals from sate bbqs and keresone here in the annals of the great archive that is Keris Warung Kopi. So I intend to pick it up again as soon as I can clear the many cognitive cobwebs that are the result of trying to do too many things at once

A. G. Maisey · 22nd October 2021, 05:03 AM

Jaga, when you asked your big question, you really hit right at the heart of understanding at least one of the aspects of keris knowledge. My response to your question does, I think, give more about the idea of pawakan than we might be able to find elsewhere. It does surprise me just a little that what I have written has not generated comment, so maybe this means that everybody who has read it now has a perfect understanding of my words and the ideas that those words represent. I did not realise that my writing was so clear and precise.

Ian · 27th October 2021, 08:44 PM

Alan,

As a casual reader about the keris on these pages I think your frank and insightful comments have taken people somewhat by surprise. Like jaga, I'm absorbing your analysis of language and the meaning of the terms used to describe the keris. The German word gestalt comes to mind, in that the whole is much more than the sum of its parts. By distilling these classifications into "like" or "dislike" as a starting point for the novice or casual reader, you have done a great favor for the uninitiated who may wish to think more abut why they like or dislike a certain item.

I don't know if this was your intention.

Regards,

Ian.

A. G. Maisey · 28th October 2021, 12:47 AM

Ian, when I set out to respond to the original question, my intention was to put into simple, plain English language the central essence of my own understanding of pawakan & the elements surrounding it. I have had the benefit of learning from a man who was recognised during his lifetime as a great master of traditional Javanese beliefs. I have learnt other things from other people & other sources.

All this has helped to form my own perspective, which does vary a little from the perspectives of most of the people who gave me their knowledge & understanding.

To my mind the single most important thing that we must learn before we can even begin to have a small understanding of the keris is the World View of the people to whom it is a cultural icon:- the traditional Javanese and traditional Balinese people. In the absence of this understanding I believe it is impossible to understand much at all about the keris.

Regrettably I have found that it is really quite difficult to find people in Jawa & Bali today who have a similar World View, and similar values to those held by the people I knew in Jawa & Bali forty or fifty years ago.

I guess this is true of many places in the world today.

You, Ian are, I believe ridgydidge Oz. True Blue Australian.

How long is it since you encountered a real fair dinkum Man of the Land?

Even fairly humble cattle & sheep men send their kids to Sydney Grammar or Kings, and then sometimes on to Oxford. How many of this generation of Men of the Land would understand their grandfathers or the values of their Grandfathers?

What I tried to do with what I wrote was to present a starting point for people who cannot do what I have done.

Ian · 28th October 2021, 01:28 AM

Alan,

Yes, I am a fair dinkum Aussie! My mother's family were dairy farmers from remote NE Victoria and the Man From Snowy River is buried in her home town. As a kid in 1950, I saw one of the last bullock trains still operating. The traditional ways are long gone now, of course, and everything is mechanised and computerised. There are still "old characters" around in their nineties, but they are getting fewer every year. I have not seen a drover on a horse in the last fifty years.

So yes, the traditional methods and knowledge have disappeared with time and progress.

Ian.

30th September 2021, 06:55 PM	#1
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 295	'Not knowing much at all.' Dear Alan; My teacher, the incomparable Ustad Ali Akbar Khan, considered by many to be the greatest Indian musician of the 20th century, said, towards the end of his life that he "Was just beginning to achieve an understanding of music." You may "Not know much at all", but if I need information on a keris, as I have before, I'll gladly ask you. There's a difference between 'not knowing much at all', which is quite legitimate for you to say, and being the kind of authority that I know you to be. As for me, I'm at the level of "I like that" or "I dislike that".

30th September 2021, 09:48 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,736	Actually Montino, I feel that "like" and "not like" is a pretty OK place to start, in fact, maybe this is a good criterion for most people.

22nd October 2021, 03:40 AM	#3
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 277	Thank you for the encouragement, and for such a detailed and thoughtful response. I've been digesting it since, and I should have expressed my thanks sooner. I'd hate for this discussion to collect dust and start to adopt the scent of kretek, coals from sate bbqs and keresone here in the annals of the great archive that is Keris Warung Kopi. So I intend to pick it up again as soon as I can clear the many cognitive cobwebs that are the result of trying to do too many things at once

22nd October 2021, 05:03 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,736	Jaga, when you asked your big question, you really hit right at the heart of understanding at least one of the aspects of keris knowledge. My response to your question does, I think, give more about the idea of pawakan than we might be able to find elsewhere. It does surprise me just a little that what I have written has not generated comment, so maybe this means that everybody who has read it now has a perfect understanding of my words and the ideas that those words represent. I did not realise that my writing was so clear and precise.

27th October 2021, 08:44 PM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,043	Alan, As a casual reader about the keris on these pages I think your frank and insightful comments have taken people somewhat by surprise. Like jaga, I'm absorbing your analysis of language and the meaning of the terms used to describe the keris. The German word gestalt comes to mind, in that the whole is much more than the sum of its parts. By distilling these classifications into "like" or "dislike" as a starting point for the novice or casual reader, you have done a great favor for the uninitiated who may wish to think more abut why they like or dislike a certain item. I don't know if this was your intention. Regards, Ian.

28th October 2021, 12:47 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,736	Ian, when I set out to respond to the original question, my intention was to put into simple, plain English language the central essence of my own understanding of pawakan & the elements surrounding it. I have had the benefit of learning from a man who was recognised during his lifetime as a great master of traditional Javanese beliefs. I have learnt other things from other people & other sources. All this has helped to form my own perspective, which does vary a little from the perspectives of most of the people who gave me their knowledge & understanding. To my mind the single most important thing that we must learn before we can even begin to have a small understanding of the keris is the World View of the people to whom it is a cultural icon:- the traditional Javanese and traditional Balinese people. In the absence of this understanding I believe it is impossible to understand much at all about the keris. Regrettably I have found that it is really quite difficult to find people in Jawa & Bali today who have a similar World View, and similar values to those held by the people I knew in Jawa & Bali forty or fifty years ago. I guess this is true of many places in the world today. You, Ian are, I believe ridgydidge Oz. True Blue Australian. How long is it since you encountered a real fair dinkum Man of the Land? Even fairly humble cattle & sheep men send their kids to Sydney Grammar or Kings, and then sometimes on to Oxford. How many of this generation of Men of the Land would understand their grandfathers or the values of their Grandfathers? What I tried to do with what I wrote was to present a starting point for people who cannot do what I have done.

28th October 2021, 01:28 AM	#7
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,043	Alan, Yes, I am a fair dinkum Aussie! My mother's family were dairy farmers from remote NE Victoria and the Man From Snowy River is buried in her home town. As a kid in 1950, I saw one of the last bullock trains still operating. The traditional ways are long gone now, of course, and everything is mechanised and computerised. There are still "old characters" around in their nineties, but they are getting fewer every year. I have not seen a drover on a horse in the last fifty years. So yes, the traditional methods and knowledge have disappeared with time and progress. Ian.