Smallsword Info (named Sebastian Ernandes)

Interested Party · 9th January 2024, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

My post #6 was somehow an approach on how tricky smiths names may be an indication of authorship by judging on the the spelling of their names on blades. This blade looks like top grade. It would take an expert to define whether it is a true work of Sebastian Hernandez. With my ignorance, it does look so.

Rather than exact workshop, I am asking if this blade profile looks in the Spanish style. Does the hilt look English with its grip and pommel or French in its donkey's hoof guard? I would think it is an older blade and newer hilt, I assume in its working life. I have not seen dimensions of the sword and blade so I have been looking and wondering is it shortened? How does its tip move? By its look I would guess it parries well, but is the tip slow? The pommel is big enough that it could possibly balance the blade.

& Fernando I think you are being overly modest.

Rogerfox welcome. It will be nice to have a mail specialist to answer question at the forum.

Jim McDougall · 9th January 2024, 03:25 PM

It seems we have been remiss in not formally welcoming Roger to the forum, and especially for bringing in such a great example small sword for discussion. The best thing with this forum has always been the sharing of such examples by members and the discussion, with which we all learn, together.

The entries Radboud has placed here on the proper nomenclature are remarkable! and a perfect example of how we all continue to learn by sharing here. Though I have obsessively studied arms history for more years than I can say exactly, I often still feel a novice as there is so much to learn, and only a network of specialists such as reside here can possibly answer the countless questions that come with every unique discovery.
Nobody can effectively know everything obviously, but collectively the resounding strength of the comprehensive knowledge here is formidable.

To that, I.P., your questions are well placed as are your observations, and you are absolutely in no way, obtuse!

In my opinion, this seems certainly appears to be a German made rapier blade which is of heirloom quality and a likely of course about mid 17th century. The most compelling indicators are of course the spelling of the name, as well as the punctuating 'x's which were a well established convention it seems with Solingen blades. It should be noted as far as 'Spanish style', in the mid 17th century, Toledo was effectively in decline and all but defunct by the end of the century. The innovative German smiths were adept at duplicating not only the features and style of the Spanish blades, but readily adopted and spuriously applied the names and markings accordingly. I actually have a rapier blade which came from a shipwreck dating in 1690s intended to represent a Toledo maker (Aiala) but with atypical Spanish punzone, thus clearly a Solingen product.

The hilt is English and of latter 18th century, and of the faceted cut steel fashion associated primarily with Matthew Boulton in Soho at that time.
While the small sword in this period was regarded as 'in decline' as far as a fashionable accoutrement in gentleman's wear, fencing had become powerfully popular. In England fencing masters such as Angelo had brought the art into high dimension.

Regarding the bilobate guard, which is of course typical of the small sword, this shape and style was ubiquitously used in these type swords in virtually all countries using the small sword. While commonly called a shell guard colloquially, the rather colorful term describing 'donkeys hoof' (pas d'ane) is simply the apparently proper nomenclature. So the guard would not denote French origin of the hilt, and what is so notably hard about identifying small swords is the universality of the hilt elements.

It seems likely that in the gentry, those who were deeply enamored of the fencing art might well have desired a sword in the high fashion of the time mounted with a fine rapier blade in use in the period of the high masters of the previous century. Whether actually used or not, the profound status of such a sword would be proudly worn, and no doubt, such a blade shown off in accord.

The hubris and obsession with prestige and status of these times in the end of the 18th into the early 19th century in the gentry are often not well realized, but one case in point that I think a good illustration would be the renowned Beau Brummel. While not saying this sword has anything to do with him obviously, the analogy is to illustrate what I mean.

As far as the swords functionality, it is of course hard to say without handling it, but I would presume it would handle well as required. Remember these were worn primarily as elements of fashion, but could be used, mostly as a deterrent, in self defense. In the business of dueling, which is sketchy at best, most likely epee or saber specifically intended would be employed.

In all, a MOST attractive and historically intriguing example!

fernando · 9th January 2024, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...It seems we have been remiss in not formally welcoming Roger to the forum...

Not really (per post #2)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... It should be noted as far as 'Spanish style', in the mid 17th century, Toledo was effectively in decline...

Is that so, Jim ? Do you mean the center or the masters ?. Sebastian Hernandez was active in the 1630's and showing his mastership; this cited by Palomares and Estruch, ... rigth ?

Jim McDougall · 9th January 2024, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Not really (per post #2)

Is that so, Jim ? Do you mean the center or the masters ?. Sebastian Hernandez was active in the 1630's and showing his mastership; this cited by Palomares and Estruch, ... rigth ?

Right Fernando......see what I mean? oops

Jim McDougall · 9th January 2024, 04:51 PM

Roger, yay! PLZ do not dismount the sword.
As noted by Fernando, this blade DOES look remarkably Spanish......so hard to say. It was not at all uncommon to have small swords mounted with rapier blades in 'transitional rapiers' which were essentially small swords with rapier blades end of 17th century (Egerton Castle, 1885).

The hilt is undoubtedly English, Matthew Boulton style as noted (Aylward, 1945).

I think we can say this is most certainly an English cut steel hilt of 1790s mounted with 17th century rapier blade of notably Spanish style and what appears a spurious use of the name SEBASTIAN HERNANDEZ.
Beyond that, not sure what more can be said.

RogerFox · 9th January 2024, 11:17 PM

You already say a lot, thank you guys.

fernando · 10th January 2024, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I think we can say this is most certainly an English cut steel hilt of 1790s mounted with 17th century rapier blade of notably Spanish style and what appears a spurious use of the name SEBASTIAN HERNANDEZ...

Who am i, to opposite your diagnosis, Jim. What i wanted to pinpoint in my post 6# is that, even genuine masters incur in misspelings of their names. I wonder if the wordings to be engraved on blades are done, or previously written on paper, by their literate assistants. We tend to believe that a sword is made by one man alone, but there are a myriad of artists 'in town' that complete the whole thing; the master that forges the blade to get all the laurels.
Just look at this sword. Can you believe that, this "piece of junk" was made by any John Doe and the inscription on the blade, "SEBASTIAN ERNANDES", is no other than a forgery ?

Yours humbly ....´

.

Jim McDougall · 10th January 2024, 09:17 PM

By the same token Fernando......just who am I to posit such a 'diagnosis'? I thought I was expressing an opinion or idea, as so often happens in actual discussions. There does not have to be a debate. As none of us have a time machine, nor reliable eyewitness accounts of the organization and staffing of the many workshops in Solingen, nor in Toledo or any other blade making center. ....how can 'we' know who actually placed markings or decoration on the blades produced?

With that, which 'we' believes that a sword is made by one man alone? I cannot say I have followed such a notion except perhaps in my earliest years of study as a very young man. It became abundantly clear very soon that swords as a whole were assembled by cutlers, outfitters, armorers or various multi-task oriented entities using components from various producers. The blades themselves came from the various centers discussed.

I am a bit disappointed in the use of the term forgery describing a very nice rapier with a blade having the same makers name SEBASTIAN ERNANDEZ (sic).
I would point out, just as you always so kindly correct my comments, that the term 'spurious' which I used to describe the possible character of this famous Toledo name, misspelled....has NOTHING to do with forgery.
The use of famed Spanish names on the blades made in Solingen were used 'spuriously' along with marks etc. as associations with the traditional quality associated with these Spanish indicators. Often they were obviously of makers long gone, such as SAHAGUM, whose name is virtually ubiquitous on blades from Solingen circulating through Europe as sort of a 'brand'.

So to go to the sword blade in 'discussion' here in the OP. It is clearly a high quality blade (if I can say that). But WAS it made by Sebastian Hernandez (or of course as emphasized...in his shop)?

In Spain, even an illiterate worker in or associated with the shop of maestro Hernandez, would likely know how to spell HERNANDEZ. Notice that the ONLY letter missing is the 'H'. Perhaps I am naive in presuming that this might be the result of phonetic transcription, where the H is silent in the pronunciation of the name.
The German workers who went to Toledo from Solingen to work adopted Spanish versions of their name, by analogy Heinrich Kohl= Enrique Coll or Coel. The variations of that name are noted in various compendiums.
What connection would this imply?
That certainly there were variations in spelling names by the equally varying factors involving those who placed the makers name on the blades.

The point is (and forgive me Roger for creating yet another Tolstoyean missive) that while this blade has resounding quality and style which MAY be truly a Spanish product (and as pointed out, without knowing if the punzone of Hernandez is on the ricasso) it may very well be a Solingen product using that name (spuriously.....in the manner described).

I think the best solution is to find examples of a Hernandez blade with undisputed provenance which would show his favored blade style (fullering etc.) to compare. My reason for suspecting Solingen origin of this blade was not only the misspelling, but the X combinations used along with the name...a convention often seen on other Solingen blades, especially the ANDREA FERARA examples.
But THAT is a whole 'nother' story!

fernando · 9th January 2024, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Interested Party

Rather than exact workshop, I am asking if this blade profile looks in the Spanish style.

As i said, it would take a rather experienced person to define such attribution; as the smith's punzones are potentialy hidden by that adapted tang ferrule. Not so easy to judge by the blade style, as different masters didn't follow a Toledo pattern but worked on their own blade profiles. In reading Lhermite, one tends to understand that Hernandez recasso blades were mainly 'llanos' but also 'buhidos', two swords i can not find in any Spanish dictionaries nor in the Web. Perhaps 'llana' means plain, flat (?). Let us realize that they were mostly 'wide', if i read correctly GERMÁN DUEÑAS BERAIZ paper. Wait until some knowledged member says this is not a Spanish blade. As in my perspective this is indeed Spanish ... and forged by Sebastian Hrnandez. That cut steel hilt is in no way Spanish, i would say; but i will leave such question to Jim.

PS
Posts crossed with Jim. I take long to essay texts (in English) before submiting them

Jim McDougall · 9th January 2024, 04:01 PM

Fernando its just that you are remarkably prudent in your responses. With me I tend to get excited and storm off in my usual voluminous 'essays'

which often end up with misplaced or misunderstood comments.
I agree with your observations on this blade looking compellingly Spanish, but the misspelled name sends my thoughts to the cunning German craftsmen.

What complicates things is that we know some Solingen swordsmiths did go to Spain to work in the 17th c. While only several names and instances are recorded (i.e. COEL) there surely must have been others, which may account for misspell.

RogerFox · 9th January 2024, 04:14 PM

I would like to thank you all for all the time and knowledge you put over my post. I take it as the most warm welcome to this community.

So at this point we have:

Hilt: The only comment about it (and pretty complete) point it over London late 18th.

Blade: Different opinion between genuine Spanish + Enrnandez and Solingen.

Can i do something for you guys it may helps to get better info (no, i will not dismount the sword

)

9th January 2024, 03:25 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	It seems we have been remiss in not formally welcoming Roger to the forum, and especially for bringing in such a great example small sword for discussion. The best thing with this forum has always been the sharing of such examples by members and the discussion, with which we all learn, together. The entries Radboud has placed here on the proper nomenclature are remarkable! and a perfect example of how we all continue to learn by sharing here. Though I have obsessively studied arms history for more years than I can say exactly, I often still feel a novice as there is so much to learn, and only a network of specialists such as reside here can possibly answer the countless questions that come with every unique discovery. Nobody can effectively know everything obviously, but collectively the resounding strength of the comprehensive knowledge here is formidable. To that, I.P., your questions are well placed as are your observations, and you are absolutely in no way, obtuse! In my opinion, this seems certainly appears to be a German made rapier blade which is of heirloom quality and a likely of course about mid 17th century. The most compelling indicators are of course the spelling of the name, as well as the punctuating 'x's which were a well established convention it seems with Solingen blades. It should be noted as far as 'Spanish style', in the mid 17th century, Toledo was effectively in decline and all but defunct by the end of the century. The innovative German smiths were adept at duplicating not only the features and style of the Spanish blades, but readily adopted and spuriously applied the names and markings accordingly. I actually have a rapier blade which came from a shipwreck dating in 1690s intended to represent a Toledo maker (Aiala) but with atypical Spanish punzone, thus clearly a Solingen product. The hilt is English and of latter 18th century, and of the faceted cut steel fashion associated primarily with Matthew Boulton in Soho at that time. While the small sword in this period was regarded as 'in decline' as far as a fashionable accoutrement in gentleman's wear, fencing had become powerfully popular. In England fencing masters such as Angelo had brought the art into high dimension. Regarding the bilobate guard, which is of course typical of the small sword, this shape and style was ubiquitously used in these type swords in virtually all countries using the small sword. While commonly called a shell guard colloquially, the rather colorful term describing 'donkeys hoof' (pas d'ane) is simply the apparently proper nomenclature. So the guard would not denote French origin of the hilt, and what is so notably hard about identifying small swords is the universality of the hilt elements. It seems likely that in the gentry, those who were deeply enamored of the fencing art might well have desired a sword in the high fashion of the time mounted with a fine rapier blade in use in the period of the high masters of the previous century. Whether actually used or not, the profound status of such a sword would be proudly worn, and no doubt, such a blade shown off in accord. The hubris and obsession with prestige and status of these times in the end of the 18th into the early 19th century in the gentry are often not well realized, but one case in point that I think a good illustration would be the renowned Beau Brummel. While not saying this sword has anything to do with him obviously, the analogy is to illustrate what I mean. As far as the swords functionality, it is of course hard to say without handling it, but I would presume it would handle well as required. Remember these were worn primarily as elements of fashion, but could be used, mostly as a deterrent, in self defense. In the business of dueling, which is sketchy at best, most likely epee or saber specifically intended would be employed. In all, a MOST attractive and historically intriguing example! Last edited by Jim McDougall; 9th January 2024 at 03:40 PM.

9th January 2024, 04:51 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Roger, yay! PLZ do not dismount the sword. As noted by Fernando, this blade DOES look remarkably Spanish......so hard to say. It was not at all uncommon to have small swords mounted with rapier blades in 'transitional rapiers' which were essentially small swords with rapier blades end of 17th century (Egerton Castle, 1885). The hilt is undoubtedly English, Matthew Boulton style as noted (Aylward, 1945). I think we can say this is most certainly an English cut steel hilt of 1790s mounted with 17th century rapier blade of notably Spanish style and what appears a spurious use of the name SEBASTIAN HERNANDEZ. Beyond that, not sure what more can be said.

9th January 2024, 11:17 PM	#6
RogerFox Member Join Date: Dec 2023 Location: Italy Posts: 18	You already say a lot, thank you guys.

10th January 2024, 09:17 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	By the same token Fernando......just who am I to posit such a 'diagnosis'? I thought I was expressing an opinion or idea, as so often happens in actual discussions. There does not have to be a debate. As none of us have a time machine, nor reliable eyewitness accounts of the organization and staffing of the many workshops in Solingen, nor in Toledo or any other blade making center. ....how can 'we' know who actually placed markings or decoration on the blades produced? With that, which 'we' believes that a sword is made by one man alone? I cannot say I have followed such a notion except perhaps in my earliest years of study as a very young man. It became abundantly clear very soon that swords as a whole were assembled by cutlers, outfitters, armorers or various multi-task oriented entities using components from various producers. The blades themselves came from the various centers discussed. I am a bit disappointed in the use of the term forgery describing a very nice rapier with a blade having the same makers name SEBASTIAN ERNANDEZ (sic). I would point out, just as you always so kindly correct my comments, that the term 'spurious' which I used to describe the possible character of this famous Toledo name, misspelled....has NOTHING to do with forgery. The use of famed Spanish names on the blades made in Solingen were used 'spuriously' along with marks etc. as associations with the traditional quality associated with these Spanish indicators. Often they were obviously of makers long gone, such as SAHAGUM, whose name is virtually ubiquitous on blades from Solingen circulating through Europe as sort of a 'brand'. So to go to the sword blade in 'discussion' here in the OP. It is clearly a high quality blade (if I can say that). But WAS it made by Sebastian Hernandez (or of course as emphasized...in his shop)? In Spain, even an illiterate worker in or associated with the shop of maestro Hernandez, would likely know how to spell HERNANDEZ. Notice that the ONLY letter missing is the 'H'. Perhaps I am naive in presuming that this might be the result of phonetic transcription, where the H is silent in the pronunciation of the name. The German workers who went to Toledo from Solingen to work adopted Spanish versions of their name, by analogy Heinrich Kohl= Enrique Coll or Coel. The variations of that name are noted in various compendiums. What connection would this imply? That certainly there were variations in spelling names by the equally varying factors involving those who placed the makers name on the blades. The point is (and forgive me Roger for creating yet another Tolstoyean missive) that while this blade has resounding quality and style which MAY be truly a Spanish product (and as pointed out, without knowing if the punzone of Hernandez is on the ricasso) it may very well be a Solingen product using that name (spuriously.....in the manner described). I think the best solution is to find examples of a Hernandez blade with undisputed provenance which would show his favored blade style (fullering etc.) to compare. My reason for suspecting Solingen origin of this blade was not only the misspelling, but the X combinations used along with the name...a convention often seen on other Solingen blades, especially the ANDREA FERARA examples. But THAT is a whole 'nother' story!

9th January 2024, 04:01 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Fernando its just that you are remarkably prudent in your responses. With me I tend to get excited and storm off in my usual voluminous 'essays' which often end up with misplaced or misunderstood comments. I agree with your observations on this blade looking compellingly Spanish, but the misspelled name sends my thoughts to the cunning German craftsmen. What complicates things is that we know some Solingen swordsmiths did go to Spain to work in the 17th c. While only several names and instances are recorded (i.e. COEL) there surely must have been others, which may account for misspell.

9th January 2024, 04:14 PM	#11
RogerFox Member Join Date: Dec 2023 Location: Italy Posts: 18	I would like to thank you all for all the time and knowledge you put over my post. I take it as the most warm welcome to this community. So at this point we have: Hilt: The only comment about it (and pretty complete) point it over London late 18th. Blade: Different opinion between genuine Spanish + Enrnandez and Solingen. Can i do something for you guys it may helps to get better info (no, i will not dismount the sword )