Basket hilted swords

[fernando]

Originally Posted by celtan

... BTW, the lasso-guard sword looks too nicely designed for such an uninspiring crossguard/quillions...

En absoluto .

[Jim McDougall]

Well observed Manolo and Nando!
Good example of a rapier fabricated 'by the numbers'!!! and as Cathey notes, not a basket hilt......which would have followed different blueprints .
And yeah, I can see Emma Peel vaguely through the purple haze!!!

All the best,
Jim

[Mark Deyer]

Hi,
Here,s my contribution a 1731 dated one recently picked up from the family any info on it would be helpful.the inside of the cross gaurd is coverd in a black pitch type material and it is evident that it once covered the out side of the hilt as well the all is original,only thing ever done to it it has a old tape repair to the bottom of the scabbard.
Thanks Mark

[Jim McDougall]

Mark, this is an absolutely magnificent example of a mid 18th century British dragoon basket hilt! Welcome to the forum, and thank you so much not only for the grand entrance with this beauty! but for reviving this fascinating old thread.

The late Anthony Darling wrote his venerable article on these, "The British Basket Hilted Cavalry Sword" in 1974 ("Canadian Journal of Arms Collecting" Vol 7, #3) and on p.86 (fig 7 group) is one which is remarkably similar to yours. This is regarded as an Anglo-Irish hilt type with a horizontal bar bisecting the arms of the basket, and these are believed to have been English made. The absence of the looping bars at the base of the basket seem another indicator of this classification.

Dr. Cyril Mazansky , "British Basket Hilted Cavalry Swords" (2005) classifies the pommel type as 'tall bun' (type IID) and on p75, the group of hilts in F1 seem to follow closely the basic design. These are again English dragoon hilts.

Darling (op.cit.) notes that while many of these dragon hilts were made in London and Birmingham, some were also produced in Glasgow and Stirling, which were garrison towns. The ring around the base of the pommel seems to suggest mid 18th around 1750s, and most examples of this period have this feature. It is noted that the British dragoon hilts were quite sturdier than the Scottish hilts, and of course plain without piercings and other motif.

I am not sure on the '45' which seems scratched into the scabbard throat. It does not seem to correspond to regimental numerals often seen (i.e. 42 was the Black Watch, 42nd Foot). Darling indicates this particular type hilt as seen on yours is in his opinion one the finest forms of these dragoon hilts, and these were apparently associated with the 6th Inniskillings (Heavy dragoons).

May we know more on the blade, length, any markings please . How is the 1731 date attributed?

Fantastic piece!!!!


All best regards,
Jim

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Mark, this is an absolutely magnificent example of a mid 18th century British dragoon basket hilt! Welcome to the forum, and thank you so much not only for the grand entrance with this beauty! but for reviving this fascinating old thread.

The late Anthony Darling wrote his venerable article on these, "The British Basket Hilted Cavalry Sword" in 1974 ("Canadian Journal of Arms Collecting" Vol 7, #3) and on p.86 (fig 7 group) is one which is remarkably similar to yours. This is regarded as an Anglo-Irish hilt type with a horizontal bar bisecting the arms of the basket, and these are believed to have been English made. The absence of the looping bars at the base of the basket seem another indicator of this classification.

Dr. Cyril Mazansky , "British Basket Hilted Cavalry Swords" (2005) classifies the pommel type as 'tall bun' (type IID) and on p75, the group of hilts in F1 seem to follow closely the basic design. These are again English dragoon hilts.

Darling (op.cit.) notes that while many of these dragon hilts were made in London and Birmingham, some were also produced in Glasgow and Stirling, which were garrison towns. The ring around the base of the pommel seems to suggest mid 18th around 1750s, and most examples of this period have this feature. It is noted that the British dragoon hilts were quite sturdier than the Scottish hilts, and of course plain without piercings and other motif.

I am not sure on the '45' which seems scratched into the scabbard throat. It does not seem to correspond to regimental numerals often seen (i.e. 42 was the Black Watch, 42nd Foot). Darling indicates this particular type hilt as seen on yours is in his opinion one the finest forms of these dragoon hilts, and these were apparently associated with the 6th Inniskillings (Heavy dragoons).

May we know more on the blade, length, any markings please . How is the 1731 date attributed?

Fantastic piece!!!!


All best regards,
Jim

Salaams Jim, Lovely subject by Cathey! Perhaps this 45 is a reference to this Wikepedia historical page Quote''The Jacobite rising of 1745, often referred to as "The 'Forty-Five", was the attempt by Charles Edward Stuart to regain the British throne for the exiled House of Stuart, and recreate an absolute monarchy in the Kingdom of Great Britain[citation needed]. The rising occurred during the War of the Austrian Succession when most of the British Army was on the European continent. Charles Edward Stuart, commonly known as "Bonnie Prince Charlie" or "the Young Pretender," sailed to Scotland and raised the Jacobite standard at Glenfinnan in the Scottish Highlands, where he was supported by a gathering of Highland clansmen. The march south began with an initial victory at Prestonpans near Edinburgh. The Jacobite army, now in bold spirits, marched onwards to Carlisle, over the border in England. When it reached Derby, some British divisions were recalled from the Continent and the Jacobite army retreated north to Inverness where the last battle on Scottish soil took place on a nearby moor at Culloden. The Battle of Culloden ended with the final defeat of the Jacobite cause, and with Charles Edward Stuart fleeing with a price on his head. His wanderings in the northwest Highlands and Islands of Scotland in the summer months of 1746, before finally sailing to permanent exile in France, have become an era of Scottish history that is steeped in romance.'' Unquote.


See Below ..."The Battle of Culloden" by David Morier from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Culloden

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Ibrahiim, outstanding coverage on the Scottish Rebellion of 1745, the '45', and that had crossed my mind. While it would be tempting to presume this kind of patriotic imbuement, it does not fall into place with the nature of the sword, nor its placement, though I would not suggest spurious placement. Numbers placed in similar manner and in various locations may be inventory or issue related numbers, most of which remain unclear and outside most recorded explanations.
These kinds of swords were used by dragoon troopers in British regiments after Scottish subjugation, and while many were of course Scottish, it does not seem likely such a marker would have been in place on one of these swords.

I had forgotten to add to my earlier post that many forms of these English made basket hilts often had a feature within the arms and saltires of the structure an oval ring which has become generally held to be for use in holding the reins, and these are accordingly regarded as horsemans swords.
The absence of this feature does not preclude its use as a cavalry sword, but I wanted to include that detail for general reference.

[stephen wood]

Do you think this is one of the military pattern swords? It is marked "No. 16" on the hilt.

[Mark Deyer]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Mark, this is an absolutely magnificent example of a mid 18th century British dragoon basket hilt! Welcome to the forum, and thank you so much not only for the grand entrance with this beauty! but for reviving this fascinating old thread.

The late Anthony Darling wrote his venerable article on these, "The British Basket Hilted Cavalry Sword" in 1974 ("Canadian Journal of Arms Collecting" Vol 7, #3) and on p.86 (fig 7 group) is one which is remarkably similar to yours. This is regarded as an Anglo-Irish hilt type with a horizontal bar bisecting the arms of the basket, and these are believed to have been English made. The absence of the looping bars at the base of the basket seem another indicator of this classification.

Dr. Cyril Mazansky , "British Basket Hilted Cavalry Swords" (2005) classifies the pommel type as 'tall bun' (type IID) and on p75, the group of hilts in F1 seem to follow closely the basic design. These are again English dragoon hilts.

Darling (op.cit.) notes that while many of these dragon hilts were made in London and Birmingham, some were also produced in Glasgow and Stirling, which were garrison towns. The ring around the base of the pommel seems to suggest mid 18th around 1750s, and most examples of this period have this feature. It is noted that the British dragoon hilts were quite sturdier than the Scottish hilts, and of course plain without piercings and other motif.

I am not sure on the '45' which seems scratched into the scabbard throat. It does not seem to correspond to regimental numerals often seen (i.e. 42 was the Black Watch, 42nd Foot). Darling indicates this particular type hilt as seen on yours is in his opinion one the finest forms of these dragoon hilts, and these were apparently associated with the 6th Inniskillings (Heavy dragoons).

May we know more on the blade, length, any markings please . How is the 1731 date attributed?

Fantastic piece!!!!


All best regards,
Jim

Hi,
Sorry for the very late reply to your request but here are some more photos and info.
Blade length is 33.5 inch
Hilt 5.75x5.75x4.75 inch
hope you can see in the photos the numbers 1731 the 3 could in fact be a 5? could this date defiantly link it to the 6th Inniskillings? also there appears to be a small armourers mark as well as the punched dots ,then there's the 60 on the pommel , the sword is totally original the blade,grip , hilt and scabbard have obviously always been together. no markings on the blade.