my last keris

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by JustYS

Hi Marco,

Which reference are you using for the dhapur name?

According to Empu Djeno Harumbrodjo (from your old post), dhapur Mahisa/Kebo Selurung is as the following:

I reported only the name of dapur that the seller indicated to me at my request

[David]

It looks similar to Mahesa Kathong with luk, but no kembang kacang. An interesting blade.
That said i can see absolutely no logic in the reversed hilt and sheath positioning.

[Marcokeris]

in the other way, no possible....or possible but no good for ganja (too much inside or to much outside the wrongko line surface)

[JustYS]

Originally Posted by David

That said i can see absolutely no logic in the reversed hilt and sheath positioning.

Hi David,

If I understood correctly the following is the correct orientation of the blade and the hilt (right Marco?) hence the reversed sheath positioning. Very unusual dhapur indeed.

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by JustYS

Hi David,

If I understood correctly the following is the correct orientation of the blade and the hilt (right Marco?) hence the reversed sheath positioning. Very unusual dhapur indeed.

yes YustYs,.This is the only correct position of this kind of blade. If you change position is the same if you to put a right shoe on a left foot

[Marcokeris]

not the same daphur, but just to give the idea

[Marcokeris]

cengkrong 5 luk , perhaps...but probably not

[A. G. Maisey]

The SKA pakem cengkrong lacks kruwingan, whilst the SKA pakem dhuwung does have kruwingan, also a cengkrong does not need to have the back edge sharp, whereas the dhuwung does.

The subject keris has a sharp back edge and kruwingan.

Using the SKA pakem it cannot be anything other than dhuwung luk lima, but I have no idea at all what it might have been called at the time & in the place where it was made.

I do not think this is a Central Javanese keris, more likely East Jawa, and over there it could have a half dozen other names.

Actually, if we did allow that it was a cengkrong with 5 luk, in spite of the fact that it does not quite satisfy the requirements for a cengkrong, it would then be a Pandowo Cengkrong, not a Cengkrong Luk Lima.

[kai]

I beg to differ, Marco: At least from a Surakarta perspective, this seems to be a non-sequitur.

Blades of mahesa = kebo family (including dhuwung if I may) seem to be consistently oriented in the standard position (with the gandhik to the left, tip up). All keris of one of these dhapur variants that I've seen so far (including pieces in Yogya fittings) had been fitted to scabbards (and hilts) in the standard position, too.

The only exception seems to be dhapur cengkrong/cundrik which does seem to be mounted "backwards" - not sure if this is always done? (I've also seen a cengkrong/cundrik with regular gandhik and kembang kacang on the shorter side - kinda with dhungkul vibes.)

Maybe the tukang confused these similar dhapur families? The scabbard appears to be modern, correct?

Regards,
Kai

[Marcokeris]

please don't misrepresent what i write... i posted the picture taken from the Daphur book just to show why the handle is inside out

[kai]

Hello Marco ,

I'm sincerely trying to understand your comments and also noted that you doubt the cengkrong attribution might be suitable for this keris in post #27.

What I'm trying to bring across is that both dhapur examples were not chosen well since cengkrong/cundrik seem to be treated differently compared to all other keris blades (including mahesa/kebo and, fitting best for your keris, dhuwung). This seems also supported by quite a number of keris from these resembling dhapur families that I've seen.

Actually, I'd be very keen to see how large cengkrong/cundrik blades are fitted into scabbards - those I remember exhibited not as broad blade bases as shown in the reference book.

Thanks for bringing up this point for us all to learn!

Regards,
Kai

[David]

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

please don't misrepresent what i write... i posted the picture taken from the Daphur book just to show why the handle is inside out

Marco, as others are pointing out, i don't think we are looking at a cengkrong or cundrik, if for no other reason than your blade having what to my eye appears to be a rather well pronounced extra long gandik. Since the seller named this dhapur Maeso Slurung (correctly or not) they seem to have recognized that by placing it in the Mahesa/Kebo family. So the orientation of hilts on cengkrong/cundrik doesn't seem to apply here.
This is what this blade put me in mind of, lacking a kembang kacang of course. At the time of purchase it was identified to me as Kebo Giri Luk Telu. I have also seen Kebo Giri named Mahesa Kanthong.
I do also see much merit with Alan's suggestion of dhapur dhuwung luk lima. While the pakem drawings i have seen of dhapur dhuwung usually suggest a somewhat broader/wider blade the yours it still does seem to fit the suggest ricikan well.
Though it possible this is simply a dhapur that falls between the folds. There probably should be a point where we stop trying to squeeze a keris in per-existing categories and simply just enjoy the blade for whatever it is.

[kai]

Originally Posted by kai

(I've also seen a cengkrong/cundrik with regular gandhik and kembang kacang on the shorter side - kinda with dhungkul vibes.)

Here's the interesting blade with long cengkrong/cundrik-like gandhik and shorter regular gandhik (with kembang pogog).

It is fitted in reverse position as expected for regular cengkrong/cundrik.

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

My understanding for the reversed hilt position of cengkrong blades is that in the far distant past this cengkrong form was much favoured by religious gentlemen, ulamas & suchlike, and to indicate their gentle nature, as opposed to the more unrefined, warlike, aggressive nature of the general populace they wore the hilt in the reverse position, thus making it unsuited to instant use.

A similar practice also applied in Bali.

By mounting the keris in such a way that the hilt is reversed, but when fitted to the scabbard it appears to be in correct dress orientation, the whole point of reverse mount of the hilt has been negated. Whoever did this reverse mount did not know such a hell of a lot about keris tradition, if indeed this blade can be classified as cengkrong.

Any keris with any blade angle can be fitted to any scabbard, this is achieved by altering the angle of the gandar to the atasan/gambar.

Personally, I'm prepared to accept just about any name that somebody comes up with for this dhapur, the seller clearly did not think it qualified as "cengkrong" --- according to his standards --- neither do I, but maybe somebody else might disagree, that's OK, its that person's opinion, and when there can be so much variation in keris terminology --- legitimate or not --- why pursue discussion about something so insignificant?

Is perhaps the social significance of a reversed hilt of slightly more significance?

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by kai

Here's the interesting blade with long cengkrong/cundrik-like gandhik and shorter regular gandhik (with kembang pogog).

It is fitted in reverse position as expected for regular cengkrong/cundrik.

Regards,
Kai

yes, but from your last pic, it's no possible to understand the verse of the blade inside the sheath

[David]

Originally Posted by kai

Here's the interesting blade with long cengkrong/cundrik-like gandhik and shorter regular gandhik (with kembang pogog).

It is fitted in reverse position as expected for regular cengkrong/cundrik.

Regards,
Kai

Well i suppose, however incorrect i might be about it, i was considering cengkrong/cundrik as outside the category of the standard keris. And again, i do personally would not consider Marco's example to be a cengkrong or cundrik. So i still have never seen a keris fitted to a sheath in that manner.
I am not sure that i agree that i see cengkrong/cundrik as part of the Maheas family.
As to the example you posted next, which i assume you posted to illustrate your point (?), it is a confusing one because it also present a kembang pogog on one side. And if i am not mistaken, both the hilt and the kembang pogog are oriented in the normal manner in the wrongko, not reversed.
If you have any examples of how regular cengkrong/cundrik are oriented in their sheaths i would love to see them as i don't believe i have ever seen one with its sheath.

[A. G. Maisey]

This dhapur naming is perhaps a good example of the non-standardisation of keris terminology.

Marco's seller has given it as "Maeso Slurung / Nabrang " , "maeso" = "mahesa" = "kebo", kebo keris have a long gandhik, "slurung" is maybe from "selur" = "in a row", so maybe the name given indicates a "kebo keris with gandhiks in a row". Maybe.

However, if we use the Surakarta pakem as our reference, what we are looking at is dhapur Dhuwung Luk Lima.

Then we have dhapur "Mahesa Nabrang", this form has 15 luk.

Names used for dhapurs can & do vary from place to place, and within those places from group to group.

The Javanese language itself is not a standardised language --- according to linguists --- Javanese people famously have only one name, they do not use a family name, but that one name can change according to situation & context.

I do not believe it is possible to know all the name variations for pamors & dhapurs.

[A. G. Maisey]

Marco, just a gentle little hint:-

the word "dapur" means "kitchen" in Bahasa Indonesia.

the word "dhapur" means "shape or form" in Basa Jawa

"dapur" is not a Javanese word, "dhapur" is not an Indonesian word.

[GIO]

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

I reported only the name of dapur that the seller indicated to me at my request

Please look at the enclosure.
From "Ilmu Keris" by S Lumintu 1994