Indian katar - why so expensive?

Drabant1701 · 24th May 2020, 03:52 PM

Stockholms auktionsverk held an arms and armour auction today. Among many fine items was a beautiful katar. I had a very low estimate so I kept my ey eye on it. And it went for almost a 100 times the estimate. I can see that its a very fine item. And if it is old, 17th century, then the condition is really good. But I feel I´m missing some vital information to why someone would pay that much for it. Can any of the more seasoned collectors of indian weapon enlighten me as to why this katar is so desirable?

https://online.auktionsverket.se/2005/773181-katar/

Peter Andeweg · 24th May 2020, 04:43 PM

Interesting Katar, looking at the typical and very scarce tiger pattern in koftgari, I would suggest this Katar was probably linked to 'Tipu Sultan' the 'Tiger of Misore' many of his personal collection came on the market and most items went sky high at auction.

The Mysore reign came after the Vijanagagara empire and Tipu Sultan defended the empire against the British, but died during the Anglo-Mysore war in 1799.

He had his own arsenal with very high quality arms and armour, many of these were decorated with tiger stripe motifs. These items were confiscated by the British and are very sought after by collectors. The motif used is called 'Babri' or 'Bubri'

The riveted blade and style tells us this Katar is made in Southern India, which is another clue to the Tipu Sultan.

All the best,
Peter

David R · 24th May 2020, 05:53 PM

A personal observation only, value is always a shifting paradigm, money available, desirability, rarity and in an auction... competition.

Other than that, really good Katar are rare, the bulk of them that I have seen at arms fairs are fairly plain, and in bad condition.

corrado26 · 24th May 2020, 06:03 PM

For your consolation: Here in Germany nobody will buy a katar, because this type of weapon is a forbidden one over here and the possession of it is illegal and strongly punished

Drabant1701 · 24th May 2020, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David R

A personal observation only, value is always a shifting paradigm, money available, desirability, rarity and in an auction... competition.

Other than that, really good Katar are rare, the bulk of them that I have seen at arms fairs are fairly plain, and in bad condition.

I agree. I have seen many auctions where competition leads to inflated prices. It may just be people with unlimited funds. But what bugs me here is that normaly I can say; well they payed twice what that was worth. In this case I really can not, it may well be the right price.
Often when things get really expensive it tend to have provenance, or be engraved with the owners name, or be made of jade and diamonds and rubies.
So I thought maybe Im missing something that the experienced collectors (like Jens) will pick up on. Somethinh in the line of; the tiger patterna was only allowed on weapons belonging to the 17th century mugal emperor Soandso.

Will M · 24th May 2020, 07:40 PM

Even if one pays more than current value these items will reach that value and surpass it in time. I'm not in that league spending 10's of $1000's.
The rivet through the blade is not professionally done and most likely a later replacement but would raise the question of the blade being original to the hilt.

asomotif · 24th May 2020, 08:44 PM

India is a fast growing economy with some very wealthy people.
This piece might well be bought by an indian who wants his history back

The same happens with chinese collectors buying china porcelain in western countries.

I added some of the pictures for later reference.

Battara · 24th May 2020, 08:47 PM

Thanks Asomotif.

In the future folks please post a picture and not just a link. Links disappear after time.

Oliver Pinchot · 24th May 2020, 10:03 PM

It's decorated in bubris or tiger stripes.
I didn't read the description but bidders probably assumed it has
some connection with Tipu Sultan.

Nihl · 24th May 2020, 10:13 PM

If I had to guess, as a collector that does focus mostly on Indian weapons, the reason for the inflated price on this katar actually does come from (as Drabant suggested) its tiger stripes. These stripes are famously associated with Tipu Sultan, an 18th century South Indian ruler that was known for being pretty much being the last source of Indian resistance (and indeed the last independent kingdom) in South India against British expansion. He was known for being quite fond of tigers, and as a result had tiger faces and stripes and all sorts of tiger-related imagery on his possessions. For ease of reference a blunderbuss that is known to have been owned by him is attached. The problem with this is that, given his prominence in Indian history, his name and things representative of him (i.e. the tiger stripes) are then frequently attached to things in order to increase their worth, often quite dubiously as it is next to impossible to tell if a weapon was really owned by him or not. As a result, there are several "swords of Tipu Sultan", as well as guns and other such things that all have tigers featured on them in some way (attached is one such sword with very obvious tiger imagery). An example of clearly fraudulent attribution can be seen on Faganarms, where they justified selling a sword with a (relatively) roughly cast and decorated brass hilt for over $3,000 on the basis that it had a tiger-head pommel and "stripes" going down the handle (see https://www.faganarms.com/products/a...of-tipu-sultan, though a picture of the hilt is also attached). Though this katar is way more likely to have been owned by Tipu, it is at the same time entirely possible (I would argue, anyways,) that the koftgari artist that decorated it was simply a fan of waves.

Regardless though it certainly is quite a fine katar.

Additional factors would be the remarkably good condition the katar is in, given (specifically) how the koftgari decoration appears to have very few damages to it. There's also the fact that plenty of collectors/dealers see these items solely as art pieces, and as a result feel justified in spending exorbitant amounts of money on them in general (and an item with the "provenance" of being sold for so much means that it can be sold again - for the same price or higher - later on, should its owner ever need the money).

24th May 2020, 03:52 PM	#1
Drabant1701 Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Sweden Posts: 181	Indian katar - why so desirable? Stockholms auktionsverk held an arms and armour auction today. Among many fine items was a beautiful katar. I had a very low estimate so I kept my ey eye on it. And it went for almost a 100 times the estimate. I can see that its a very fine item. And if it is old, 17th century, then the condition is really good. But I feel I´m missing some vital information to why someone would pay that much for it. Can any of the more seasoned collectors of indian weapon enlighten me as to why this katar is so desirable? https://online.auktionsverket.se/2005/773181-katar/ Last edited by Drabant1701; 24th May 2020 at 05:56 PM.

24th May 2020, 06:03 PM	#4
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,166	For your consolation: Here in Germany nobody will buy a katar, because this type of weapon is a forbidden one over here and the possession of it is illegal and strongly punished Last edited by corrado26; 25th May 2020 at 07:30 AM.

24th May 2020, 08:44 PM	#7
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,221	India is a fast growing economy with some very wealthy people. This piece might well be bought by an indian who wants his history back The same happens with chinese collectors buying china porcelain in western countries. I added some of the pictures for later reference. Attached Images

24th May 2020, 10:13 PM	#10
Nihl Member Join Date: Feb 2018 Posts: 87	If I had to guess, as a collector that does focus mostly on Indian weapons, the reason for the inflated price on this katar actually does come from (as Drabant suggested) its tiger stripes. These stripes are famously associated with Tipu Sultan, an 18th century South Indian ruler that was known for being pretty much being the last source of Indian resistance (and indeed the last independent kingdom) in South India against British expansion. He was known for being quite fond of tigers, and as a result had tiger faces and stripes and all sorts of tiger-related imagery on his possessions. For ease of reference a blunderbuss that is known to have been owned by him is attached. The problem with this is that, given his prominence in Indian history, his name and things representative of him (i.e. the tiger stripes) are then frequently attached to things in order to increase their worth, often quite dubiously as it is next to impossible to tell if a weapon was really owned by him or not. As a result, there are several "swords of Tipu Sultan", as well as guns and other such things that all have tigers featured on them in some way (attached is one such sword with very obvious tiger imagery). An example of clearly fraudulent attribution can be seen on Faganarms, where they justified selling a sword with a (relatively) roughly cast and decorated brass hilt for over $3,000 on the basis that it had a tiger-head pommel and "stripes" going down the handle (see https://www.faganarms.com/products/a...of-tipu-sultan, though a picture of the hilt is also attached). Though this katar is way more likely to have been owned by Tipu, it is at the same time entirely possible (I would argue, anyways,) that the koftgari artist that decorated it was simply a fan of waves. Regardless though it certainly is quite a fine katar. Additional factors would be the remarkably good condition the katar is in, given (specifically) how the koftgari decoration appears to have very few damages to it. There's also the fact that plenty of collectors/dealers see these items solely as art pieces, and as a result feel justified in spending exorbitant amounts of money on them in general (and an item with the "provenance" of being sold for so much means that it can be sold again - for the same price or higher - later on, should its owner ever need the money). Attached Images

24th May 2020, 04:43 PM	#2
Peter Andeweg Member Join Date: Feb 2020 Location: Vlissingen, Netherlands Posts: 71	Interesting Katar, looking at the typical and very scarce tiger pattern in koftgari, I would suggest this Katar was probably linked to 'Tipu Sultan' the 'Tiger of Misore' many of his personal collection came on the market and most items went sky high at auction. The Mysore reign came after the Vijanagagara empire and Tipu Sultan defended the empire against the British, but died during the Anglo-Mysore war in 1799. He had his own arsenal with very high quality arms and armour, many of these were decorated with tiger stripe motifs. These items were confiscated by the British and are very sought after by collectors. The motif used is called 'Babri' or 'Bubri' The riveted blade and style tells us this Katar is made in Southern India, which is another clue to the Tipu Sultan. All the best, Peter

24th May 2020, 05:53 PM	#3
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,051	A personal observation only, value is always a shifting paradigm, money available, desirability, rarity and in an auction... competition. Other than that, really good Katar are rare, the bulk of them that I have seen at arms fairs are fairly plain, and in bad condition.

24th May 2020, 07:40 PM	#6
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 390	Even if one pays more than current value these items will reach that value and surpass it in time. I'm not in that league spending 10's of $1000's. The rivet through the blade is not professionally done and most likely a later replacement but would raise the question of the blade being original to the hilt.

24th May 2020, 08:47 PM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Thanks Asomotif. In the future folks please post a picture and not just a link. Links disappear after time.

24th May 2020, 10:03 PM	#9
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 456	It's decorated in bubris or tiger stripes. I didn't read the description but bidders probably assumed it has some connection with Tipu Sultan.