Dating the Schiavons sword

Cathey · 3rd April 2023, 03:25 AM

Just as an update, my article is almost finished now over 25 pages long. It appears to me through examination of about 140 examples that they may have been largely for infantry use very early. The Schiavonesca particularly appear to have been lighter and had shorter blades. Also the early suggestion of Infantry or Marine use could be applied to these early examples, pre the caged hilt and the early skeleton hilts.

However, it appears with the advent of the 30-year war that the Schiavona came into its own as a cavalry weapon. Curtaining in the 17th and 18th Centuries blades on average are long and wide, more suited to cavalry than infantry. They also seem to have transitioned from a general use broadsword, through to what I would describe as a riding sword (similar to a rapier but with a much broader and heavier blade) through to the Rapier with a narrower blade and a longer ricasso.

Looking at my late 18th century example, I can not imagine trying to fence with this weapon, but from horseback it would have been most effective.

Cheers Cathey.

Cathey · 15th April 2023, 06:00 AM

I am attempting to bring my article for the Heritage Arms Society on the Schiavona to the finish line, then I found a reference to a metal rain cap. Has anyone heard of these before or have any reference material on them they would be prepared to share. Here is a picture of one. It appears to be a metal shaped plate fitted to the bottom so the guard with screws, I can't find any mention of it in my existing references other than a book by Andrew Garcia.

Cheers Cathey

urbanspaceman · 15th April 2023, 08:42 AM

Here's another one on this luxurious sword.
It looks like an aftermarket addition and it is very ugly in my opinion.
Anyone who owned this sword is unlikely to be out in the rain without an umbrellahttp://www.vikingsword.com/vb/images/icons/icon7.gif
BTW. I still think this is a wootz blade or Bulat at least.
ps
I also do not think it would really be of any use; I can think of other simpler, prettier ways of keeping the rain off the blade.

urbanspaceman · 15th April 2023, 08:54 AM

Here's another picture of it that reinforces my suggestion it is an aftermarket addition; and a poor - sorry - picture of the entire sword and scabbard that further suggests it's an add-on.

werecow · 15th April 2023, 12:21 PM

Those are also pictures from Andrew Garcia's site. He's selling the sword there (EDIT: I thought it was the same sword initially but they're clearly not the same). So I guess the only two instances of this that we have so far are from his site and book.

Cathey · 16th April 2023, 09:32 AM

Hi Guys, yes one is from Andrew Garcia's site the other was posted on facebook. I know of one other example but have been unable to get pictures. From what I can see this fitting would not keep rain out of the scabbard but channel it into the scabbard. Other collectors have agreed that it is likely an addition to add protection to the hand.

Cheers Cathey

werecow · 16th April 2023, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Guys, yes one is from Andrew Garcia's site the other was posted on facebook. I know of one other example but have been unable to get pictures. From what I can see this fitting would not keep rain out of the scabbard but channel it into the scabbard. Other collectors have agreed that it is likely an addition to add protection to the hand.

Cheers Cathey

As far as I can see from the pictures, the cap runs up to the lower edge of the actual rain guard that is built into the grip, so I don't think it's actually intended to be a rain guard, but rather a guard plate to protect the fingers by closing the largish opening at the bottom of the guard. The diagram from his site calls it a "massive silver guard". You can make out the opening of the rain guard inside the opening in the guard plate in the picture below.

It looks like the scabbard on the one from Andrew Garcia's website has some chafe marks on it and I'm guessing that's how far the scabbard went into the (actual) rain guard (presumably the top of the scabbard is intended to fit into that?), in which case the metal plate would not funnel water into the scabbard but only towards the outside of it. But I'm just speculating here.

3rd April 2023, 03:25 AM	#1
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 276	Schiavona Infantry or cavalry Just as an update, my article is almost finished now over 25 pages long. It appears to me through examination of about 140 examples that they may have been largely for infantry use very early. The Schiavonesca particularly appear to have been lighter and had shorter blades. Also the early suggestion of Infantry or Marine use could be applied to these early examples, pre the caged hilt and the early skeleton hilts. However, it appears with the advent of the 30-year war that the Schiavona came into its own as a cavalry weapon. Curtaining in the 17th and 18th Centuries blades on average are long and wide, more suited to cavalry than infantry. They also seem to have transitioned from a general use broadsword, through to what I would describe as a riding sword (similar to a rapier but with a much broader and heavier blade) through to the Rapier with a narrower blade and a longer ricasso. Looking at my late 18th century example, I can not imagine trying to fence with this weapon, but from horseback it would have been most effective. Cheers Cathey.

15th April 2023, 06:00 AM	#2
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 276	metal rain cap I am attempting to bring my article for the Heritage Arms Society on the Schiavona to the finish line, then I found a reference to a metal rain cap. Has anyone heard of these before or have any reference material on them they would be prepared to share. Here is a picture of one. It appears to be a metal shaped plate fitted to the bottom so the guard with screws, I can't find any mention of it in my existing references other than a book by Andrew Garcia. Cheers Cathey Attached Images

15th April 2023, 08:42 AM	#3
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 517	rain cap picture Here's another one on this luxurious sword. It looks like an aftermarket addition and it is very ugly in my opinion. Anyone who owned this sword is unlikely to be out in the rain without an umbrellahttp://www.vikingsword.com/vb/images/icons/icon7.gif BTW. I still think this is a wootz blade or Bulat at least. ps I also do not think it would really be of any use; I can think of other simpler, prettier ways of keeping the rain off the blade. Attached Images Last edited by urbanspaceman; 15th April 2023 at 08:44 AM. Reason: ps

15th April 2023, 08:54 AM	#4
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 517	pps Here's another picture of it that reinforces my suggestion it is an aftermarket addition; and a poor - sorry - picture of the entire sword and scabbard that further suggests it's an add-on. Attached Images

15th April 2023, 12:21 PM	#5
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 435	Those are also pictures from Andrew Garcia's site. He's selling the sword there (EDIT: I thought it was the same sword initially but they're clearly not the same). So I guess the only two instances of this that we have so far are from his site and book. Last edited by werecow; 15th April 2023 at 12:34 PM.

16th April 2023, 09:32 AM	#6
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 276	Not a rain guard Hi Guys, yes one is from Andrew Garcia's site the other was posted on facebook. I know of one other example but have been unable to get pictures. From what I can see this fitting would not keep rain out of the scabbard but channel it into the scabbard. Other collectors have agreed that it is likely an addition to add protection to the hand. Cheers Cathey