Requesting Help!! Identifying the specifics of a Kris

Mickey the Finn · 23rd February 2021, 11:54 AM

Alan, my "issue" is probably no more than a semantic one, a fussing over choice of words. And my choice of Bahasa Indonesia words will probably be found to be less than precise, and perhaps flat-out wrong. I once acquired a keris Bali luk 7 or 9 (I cannot remember which) billed as "dapur balebang", but it had a kembang kacang almost halfway down the wilah, and a greatly elongated gandik, like a keris kebo of some sort. I don't think it can rightly be named (menamai/menamakan) "dhapur balebang, but with an elongated gandik and a kembang kacang almost halfway down the wilah". It could perhaps be described (menggambarkan?) as "resembling (menyerupai?)dhapur balebang, but with an elongated gandik and a kembang kacang almost halfway down the wilah". I could be wrong, but I really don't think it's balebang. I don't know what dhapur it is.
To describe a person by their most distinguishing features is different from calling someone by their name.
I'm probably making "much ado about nothing", and I should have probably just kept quiet.
Sincerely and Respectfully,
Mickey

I'm going to...not quote verbatim, but give my recollection of the gist of something you once said... With enough time, which I currently don't have, as it's 04:01, I might be able to find the exact quote. I recall you saying something like "...if it deviates from the pakem in the slightest detail, it's not that dhapur".

A. G. Maisey · 23rd February 2021, 12:58 PM

Sorry Mickey, I'm still a bit lost, however, I'll try expand a bit on what I wrote in Post 45.

The features that are considered to be correct for any particular dhapur can and do vary from place to place, from time to time, from keris study group to keris study group, and even from person to person.

We have one book that was issued under the aegis of the Surakarta Karaton that lists a large number of keris & tombak dhapurs, and I think probably most collectors tend to accept that book as the authority in so far as Javanese dhapurs are concerned. The general attitude is that unless the features of a keris match those listed in this "Surakarta Pakem" (a "pakem" is a guidebook, no more , no less) then that keris is "diluar pakem" and cannot really be considered to be any specific dhapur.

But the problem is this:- that guide book is really only valid in Surakarta, if you go down the road a bit to Ngayogyakarta you find that many keris literate people there will disagree with some of the material in the Surakarta Pakem.

Not only that, but if we work through the Surakarta Pakem, dhapur by dhapur, we will find that some of dhapurs shown and described in that Surakarta Pakem do not agree with the present day broad understanding of the name for each dhapur.

Then if we go across to Malang in East Jawa we find different opinions again. Go from Malang down to Surabaya we find more difference of opinion --- and so on, and so on, and so on.

The situation in respect of dhapur is repeated with pamor names.

It is repeated in respect of tuah.

There is very little about the names of various things associated with keris that is universal. This is why I coined the term "The Name Game" something like 40 or 50 years ago when I began to understand that virtually nothing about the keris is carved in stone. Everything varies.

Just as the simple, straightforward things like names vary, so do the beliefs.

Then, when we dig just a little below the surface we find that all those strange names that we took so much trouble to learn, mean absolutely nothing, they are red herrings that are intended to hide the true meanings.

The more we dig, the more we find that we have spent X number of years learning irrelevant names, ideas and concepts.

When we finally begin to come to some sort of a limited understanding of the keris we realise that what we thought we knew was not even the beginning of a true understanding of the keris.

But then again, not many people want to gain an understanding, most people simply want to gain a grab bag full of meaningless names so that they can classify and record. This is the essence of true collecting, and there is nothing wrong with that. But it has precious little to do with an understanding of the keris.

My personal opinion is that we are all entitled to our own opinion.

My principal teacher was Empu Suparman Supowijoyo. I knew him for more than 15 years and he taught me as much about the keris as I was able to absorb from him. His attitude was that only the Surakarta beliefs associated with the keris could be regarded as true knowledge, because those beliefs were guided by the Surakarta Karaton, which was the Senior Karaton, and in fact the only true Karaton in Jawa. If anything came from any other source it was wrong. No two ways about it.

I never, ever disagreed in even the smallest degree with Empu Suparman.

Even if I may have held a somewhat different opinion about something.

For as long as I have held a keris interest I have bought every book and booklet and pamphlet about keris that I could get my hands on; I have photo copies of a lot of other published and unpublished material, including everything about the keris that is held by the Mangkunegaraan Library in Solo.

However, what I have found is that most of this printed matter has not been of much use to me. I don't think I'm alone in this. During the 1970's through to the beginning of this century, perhaps the most frequent comment I heard from keris people in Solo was more or less:-

"it is a pity that people who write books about keris do not bother to learn about keris before they write"

the core keris beliefs in Central Jawa were always transmitted verbally, not in writing.

And these core beliefs vary.

Which makes argument and debate about the "correct name" for anything to do with the keris a pretty pointless exercise.

EDIT

On variation of ricikan.

Just a comment about my quote on legitimacy of a dhapur.

Mickey, you probably have quoted me correctly, I have said similar things for years, and still do, but that can only ever apply in the context of an accepted pakem, Surakarta or otherwise.

I usually don't speak or write an explanation of this along with the comment, because I expect the person I am addressing to understand this.

Probably if I know I'm addressing somebody who has not yet come to an understanding of the variability in keris belief & terminology I might give a very brief explanation, but usually I do not consider this necessary --- I don't really like to go on & on repeating the same things.

Mickey the Finn · 25th February 2021, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Just a comment about my quote on legitimacy of a dhapur.

Mickey, you probably have quoted me correctly, I have said similar things for years, and still do, but that can only ever apply in the context of an accepted pakem, Surakarta or otherwise.

I usually don't speak or write an explanation of this along with the comment, because I expect the person I am addressing to understand this.

Probably if I know I'm addressing somebody who has not yet come to an understanding of the variability in keris belief & terminology I might give a very brief explanation, but usually I do not consider this necessary --- I don't really like to go on & on repeating the same things.

I know. I think of you, very generally speaking, as a "Surakarta guy". I'm not saying that I think you can always be counted on to be the voice of Keraton Surakarta Hadiningrat at this forum.

Some of my more serious problems in life may be taking for granted that (some, not all) other people "know what I mean" and understand "where I'm coming from" when I say something, and assuming that other people have the same perspective as I do. I make ambiguous statements, and I've never entered into a "lets define terms" session before discussing anything with anyone.

At a forum I frequented about 20 years ago, I remember one guy wrote a lengthy post decrying the habit of other members of posting dissertation style rebuttals to posts they disagreed with, and stated his preference for my habit of simply posting "Nah" in response to something I disagreed with.
I don't have time to preface posts with explanations of what I know, believe, and/or assume, and unfortunately, I also don't have time to set forth those things which I wish my reader(s) to know that I understand and/or am aware of, those things which I assume they will understand, how I expect them to take what I say etc.

It has happened again. It's 05:08 and I just don't have much more time to continue this post.

Alan, I've read many of your posts, including many from long before I first started ghosting at this forum. Many of your posts [as well as many of the posts of other people] are way over my head. My understanding of other statements which I believe I comprehend may be completely wrong.
I think I've wasted a whole lot of my time writing this post, but I've sunk too much time into it now to not post it. I ask that you take all of what I've said at face value, ie: nothing more than words on a screen. When I have more time...

Sincerely and Respectfully,
Mickey

A. G. Maisey · 25th February 2021, 07:13 PM

All clear, all understood Mickey. I think that perhaps what you have written reflects the position of many of us, and possibly humanity in general.

As to me being a Surakarta guy.

Most of the time I have spent in Indonesia has been spent in Surakarta. I have relatives living in Surakarta, I used to have business interests in Surakarta, most of my Indonesian friends come from Surakarta, all except one of my keris teachers were from Surakarta.

With that sort of background I think it is pretty correct to classify me as being orientated towards Surakarta. But you're dead right, I am most certainly not the voice of the Karaton Surakarta. I have not now, nor at any time in the past had any official association with the Karaton Surakarta, and the situation that has prevailed in respect of that kraton since the passing of PBXII fills me with sadness. Currently I would not want to be associated with it.

However, my principal teacher of the keris was absolutely committed to the Karaton Surakarta and it is inevitable that my own standards and attitudes have been influenced by this.

But putting this personal position of mine to one side, any objective examination of the history and politics of Jawa for the last, say, 800 years cannot produce any conclusion other than that the senior branch of the House of Mataram is the Surakarta Branch of that House, and as such must represent the definitive standard of what it means to be Javanese.

And I will leave the final sentence of this post unwritten.

jagabuwana · 3rd March 2021, 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

But putting this personal position of mine to one side, any objective examination of the history and politics of Jawa for the last, say, 800 years cannot produce any conclusion other than that the senior branch of the House of Mataram is the Surakarta Branch of that House, and as such must represent the definitive standard of what it means to be Javanese.

Should there be any representatives of Kasultanan Ngayogyakarta among us, I look forward to dawn rapier duel in the Warung Kopi parking lot.

A. G. Maisey · 3rd March 2021, 10:54 AM

He who fights has already lost.

Mickey the Finn · 11th March 2021, 09:11 AM

I had been cosidering, while suffering from non-COVID related illness over the past 7 days, about making a post pertaining to D.I. Yogyakarta, Letjen Soedirman and other loosely connected topics, but I'll hold off, perhaps indefinitely.
And thoughts of rapiers at dawn had crossed my mind, as well... But I don't own a single one. The closest thing I have is an Indian-made copy of an AN XIII cuirassier sabre/ pallasch/ call it what you will.
And as I've said before, if it isn't cricket, it's just not cricket, Old Boy. And besides, Robert Mugabe is said to have said "Cricket civilizes people and creates good gentlemen". If this is the case, then surely differences of opinion can be settled in a less sanguinary manner. And I'm neither implying nor denying that any difference of opinion exists.
Surakarta is certainly the senior branch of the House of Mataram. This is a fact which is beyond dispute.
You're a very magnanimous man, Alan Maisey.
Sincerely and Respectfully,
Mickey

23rd February 2021, 12:58 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,724	Sorry Mickey, I'm still a bit lost, however, I'll try expand a bit on what I wrote in Post 45. The features that are considered to be correct for any particular dhapur can and do vary from place to place, from time to time, from keris study group to keris study group, and even from person to person. We have one book that was issued under the aegis of the Surakarta Karaton that lists a large number of keris & tombak dhapurs, and I think probably most collectors tend to accept that book as the authority in so far as Javanese dhapurs are concerned. The general attitude is that unless the features of a keris match those listed in this "Surakarta Pakem" (a "pakem" is a guidebook, no more , no less) then that keris is "diluar pakem" and cannot really be considered to be any specific dhapur. But the problem is this:- that guide book is really only valid in Surakarta, if you go down the road a bit to Ngayogyakarta you find that many keris literate people there will disagree with some of the material in the Surakarta Pakem. Not only that, but if we work through the Surakarta Pakem, dhapur by dhapur, we will find that some of dhapurs shown and described in that Surakarta Pakem do not agree with the present day broad understanding of the name for each dhapur. Then if we go across to Malang in East Jawa we find different opinions again. Go from Malang down to Surabaya we find more difference of opinion --- and so on, and so on, and so on. The situation in respect of dhapur is repeated with pamor names. It is repeated in respect of tuah. There is very little about the names of various things associated with keris that is universal. This is why I coined the term "The Name Game" something like 40 or 50 years ago when I began to understand that virtually nothing about the keris is carved in stone. Everything varies. Just as the simple, straightforward things like names vary, so do the beliefs. Then, when we dig just a little below the surface we find that all those strange names that we took so much trouble to learn, mean absolutely nothing, they are red herrings that are intended to hide the true meanings. The more we dig, the more we find that we have spent X number of years learning irrelevant names, ideas and concepts. When we finally begin to come to some sort of a limited understanding of the keris we realise that what we thought we knew was not even the beginning of a true understanding of the keris. But then again, not many people want to gain an understanding, most people simply want to gain a grab bag full of meaningless names so that they can classify and record. This is the essence of true collecting, and there is nothing wrong with that. But it has precious little to do with an understanding of the keris. My personal opinion is that we are all entitled to our own opinion. My principal teacher was Empu Suparman Supowijoyo. I knew him for more than 15 years and he taught me as much about the keris as I was able to absorb from him. His attitude was that only the Surakarta beliefs associated with the keris could be regarded as true knowledge, because those beliefs were guided by the Surakarta Karaton, which was the Senior Karaton, and in fact the only true Karaton in Jawa. If anything came from any other source it was wrong. No two ways about it. I never, ever disagreed in even the smallest degree with Empu Suparman. Even if I may have held a somewhat different opinion about something. For as long as I have held a keris interest I have bought every book and booklet and pamphlet about keris that I could get my hands on; I have photo copies of a lot of other published and unpublished material, including everything about the keris that is held by the Mangkunegaraan Library in Solo. However, what I have found is that most of this printed matter has not been of much use to me. I don't think I'm alone in this. During the 1970's through to the beginning of this century, perhaps the most frequent comment I heard from keris people in Solo was more or less:- "it is a pity that people who write books about keris do not bother to learn about keris before they write" the core keris beliefs in Central Jawa were always transmitted verbally, not in writing. And these core beliefs vary. Which makes argument and debate about the "correct name" for anything to do with the keris a pretty pointless exercise. EDIT On variation of ricikan. Just a comment about my quote on legitimacy of a dhapur. Mickey, you probably have quoted me correctly, I have said similar things for years, and still do, but that can only ever apply in the context of an accepted pakem, Surakarta or otherwise. I usually don't speak or write an explanation of this along with the comment, because I expect the person I am addressing to understand this. Probably if I know I'm addressing somebody who has not yet come to an understanding of the variability in keris belief & terminology I might give a very brief explanation, but usually I do not consider this necessary --- I don't really like to go on & on repeating the same things. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 23rd February 2021 at 10:21 PM. Reason: clarification

23rd February 2021, 11:54 AM	#1
Mickey the Finn Member Join Date: Dec 2017 Posts: 90	Alan, my "issue" is probably no more than a semantic one, a fussing over choice of words. And my choice of Bahasa Indonesia words will probably be found to be less than precise, and perhaps flat-out wrong. I once acquired a keris Bali luk 7 or 9 (I cannot remember which) billed as "dapur balebang", but it had a kembang kacang almost halfway down the wilah, and a greatly elongated gandik, like a keris kebo of some sort. I don't think it can rightly be named (menamai/menamakan) "dhapur balebang, but with an elongated gandik and a kembang kacang almost halfway down the wilah". It could perhaps be described (menggambarkan?) as "resembling (menyerupai?)dhapur balebang, but with an elongated gandik and a kembang kacang almost halfway down the wilah". I could be wrong, but I really don't think it's balebang. I don't know what dhapur it is. To describe a person by their most distinguishing features is different from calling someone by their name. I'm probably making "much ado about nothing", and I should have probably just kept quiet. Sincerely and Respectfully, Mickey I'm going to...not quote verbatim, but give my recollection of the gist of something you once said... With enough time, which I currently don't have, as it's 04:01, I might be able to find the exact quote. I recall you saying something like "...if it deviates from the pakem in the slightest detail, it's not that dhapur".

25th February 2021, 07:13 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,724	All clear, all understood Mickey. I think that perhaps what you have written reflects the position of many of us, and possibly humanity in general. As to me being a Surakarta guy. Most of the time I have spent in Indonesia has been spent in Surakarta. I have relatives living in Surakarta, I used to have business interests in Surakarta, most of my Indonesian friends come from Surakarta, all except one of my keris teachers were from Surakarta. With that sort of background I think it is pretty correct to classify me as being orientated towards Surakarta. But you're dead right, I am most certainly not the voice of the Karaton Surakarta. I have not now, nor at any time in the past had any official association with the Karaton Surakarta, and the situation that has prevailed in respect of that kraton since the passing of PBXII fills me with sadness. Currently I would not want to be associated with it. However, my principal teacher of the keris was absolutely committed to the Karaton Surakarta and it is inevitable that my own standards and attitudes have been influenced by this. But putting this personal position of mine to one side, any objective examination of the history and politics of Jawa for the last, say, 800 years cannot produce any conclusion other than that the senior branch of the House of Mataram is the Surakarta Branch of that House, and as such must represent the definitive standard of what it means to be Javanese. And I will leave the final sentence of this post unwritten.

3rd March 2021, 10:54 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,724	He who fights has already lost.

11th March 2021, 09:11 AM	#7
Mickey the Finn Member Join Date: Dec 2017 Posts: 90	I had been cosidering, while suffering from non-COVID related illness over the past 7 days, about making a post pertaining to D.I. Yogyakarta, Letjen Soedirman and other loosely connected topics, but I'll hold off, perhaps indefinitely. And thoughts of rapiers at dawn had crossed my mind, as well... But I don't own a single one. The closest thing I have is an Indian-made copy of an AN XIII cuirassier sabre/ pallasch/ call it what you will. And as I've said before, if it isn't cricket, it's just not cricket, Old Boy. And besides, Robert Mugabe is said to have said "Cricket civilizes people and creates good gentlemen". If this is the case, then surely differences of opinion can be settled in a less sanguinary manner. And I'm neither implying nor denying that any difference of opinion exists. Surakarta is certainly the senior branch of the House of Mataram. This is a fact which is beyond dispute. You're a very magnanimous man, Alan Maisey. Sincerely and Respectfully, Mickey