Tulwar marking question 3

BBJW · 15th January 2007, 05:12 PM

Hello- Can anyone tell me what these markings mean? PKs point to the position of the marks. I hope these photos are better than my previous ones.

bbjw

Jim McDougall · 16th January 2007, 03:02 AM

Hi BJ,
Now this is a tough one! I have seen the solar symbols of course, but certainly never in the X configuration with another atop. Jens and Brian, help!!

I'll keep looking though.
All the best,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 21st January 2007, 08:28 PM

Hi BJ,
It seems we have been running into some extremely esoteric topics lately, and these unusual markings appear possibly to be along the same trend. I cannot say that I have ever seen the X configuration with these toothed or rayed circles, but my inclination was toward influence from some European marking, perhaps Kabbalistic or talismanic likely seen on trade blade (s).

There were no markings associated with European makers as far as I could find, that had this unusual X pattern and the 'solar' symbols, but I did locate a Swiss blade which had two of the solar type circles and dating c.1560 (Wallace Collection p.390, a Holbein dagger).

I finally found a figure of an X topped by a dot, the same type configuration, shown as a geomantic character , on an engraved plate of these, that appeared in "The Magus, or Celestial Intelligencer" by Francis Barrett (London, 1801 and reprinted in "Amulets & Talismans, M.Gonzalez-Wippler,1995, p.208). While this reference is clearly of occult esoterica, what seems key is that before entering the arcane pursuits of the west, geomancy was practiced by the Arabs ( Gk. ge=earth manteia =divination) and had to do with foretelling future events or discovering hidden knowledge by connecting randomly placed dots with lines in one interpretation.

Since such early Arab occultism was probably known in degree in Muslim India, perhaps such symbolism as this might have suggested this unusual marking/configuration? The figure seen on the engraved plate with the X and dot is found on the line titled 'aquisito' (note the term clearly from the translated text taken from the original Arabic version).

The rayed circle is of course an ancient symbol which is found in numerous contexts, and as I have mentioned found in European markings, and I have seen Burmese dha with these same marks, also found on other edged weapons in SE Asia. Its purpose in the arrangement on this sword is unclear but hopefully others may offer more on that symbolism.

I always dread entering into discussions of such occult concepts as geomancy and other metaphysical topics which have acquired very negative connotations in recent times ,and here am only suggesting the structure of the arranged symbols and where I have discovered similar arrangement. It is often important to remember that in studying markings and elements of historical weapons, these represent beliefs and symbolism of the period and culture, and must be considered regardless of modern perceptions.

I hope this will lead to perspective which might help discover the most plausible explanation for these most interesting markings!

All the best,
Jim

FenrisWolf · 22nd January 2007, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I always dread entering into discussions of such occult concepts as geomancy and other metaphysical topics which have acquired very negative connotations in recent times ,and here am only suggesting the structure of the arranged symbols and where I have discovered similar arrangement. It is often important to remember that in studying markings and elements of historical weapons, these represent beliefs and symbolism of the period and culture, and must be considered regardless of modern perceptions.

I hope this will lead to perspective which might help discover the most plausible explanation for these most interesting markings!

All the best,
Jim

Very well put! For example, the Vikings were fond of marking their weapons with various runic inscriptions, some intended to be metaphysical (or magical) in nature, others used simply in their alphabetical form, sometimes on the same weapon (the Broad Arrow trademark used of ages to mark British military equipment is actually a carryover of the Rune Tiwaz, representative of Tyr, the viking god of war and justice).

It's always important to keep a proper historical context in mind when studying any inscription,whether it's the curses left by the Egyptian priests to guard the tomb, or the graffiti scrawled by the Egyptan workers on their beer break.....

Fenris

Jim McDougall · 22nd January 2007, 03:10 AM

Thanks very much Fenris!
Good info on the 'broad arrow' marking....its amazing how much history is behind these basic markings on weapons

All best regards,
Jim

15th January 2007, 05:12 PM	#1
BBJW Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Idaho, USA Posts: 225	Tulwar marking question 3 Hello- Can anyone tell me what these markings mean? PKs point to the position of the marks. I hope these photos are better than my previous ones. bbjw Attached Images

16th January 2007, 03:02 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,767	Hi BJ, Now this is a tough one! I have seen the solar symbols of course, but certainly never in the X configuration with another atop. Jens and Brian, help!! I'll keep looking though. All the best, Jim

21st January 2007, 08:28 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,767	Hi BJ, It seems we have been running into some extremely esoteric topics lately, and these unusual markings appear possibly to be along the same trend. I cannot say that I have ever seen the X configuration with these toothed or rayed circles, but my inclination was toward influence from some European marking, perhaps Kabbalistic or talismanic likely seen on trade blade (s). There were no markings associated with European makers as far as I could find, that had this unusual X pattern and the 'solar' symbols, but I did locate a Swiss blade which had two of the solar type circles and dating c.1560 (Wallace Collection p.390, a Holbein dagger). I finally found a figure of an X topped by a dot, the same type configuration, shown as a geomantic character , on an engraved plate of these, that appeared in "The Magus, or Celestial Intelligencer" by Francis Barrett (London, 1801 and reprinted in "Amulets & Talismans, M.Gonzalez-Wippler,1995, p.208). While this reference is clearly of occult esoterica, what seems key is that before entering the arcane pursuits of the west, geomancy was practiced by the Arabs ( Gk. ge=earth manteia =divination) and had to do with foretelling future events or discovering hidden knowledge by connecting randomly placed dots with lines in one interpretation. Since such early Arab occultism was probably known in degree in Muslim India, perhaps such symbolism as this might have suggested this unusual marking/configuration? The figure seen on the engraved plate with the X and dot is found on the line titled 'aquisito' (note the term clearly from the translated text taken from the original Arabic version). The rayed circle is of course an ancient symbol which is found in numerous contexts, and as I have mentioned found in European markings, and I have seen Burmese dha with these same marks, also found on other edged weapons in SE Asia. Its purpose in the arrangement on this sword is unclear but hopefully others may offer more on that symbolism. I always dread entering into discussions of such occult concepts as geomancy and other metaphysical topics which have acquired very negative connotations in recent times ,and here am only suggesting the structure of the arranged symbols and where I have discovered similar arrangement. It is often important to remember that in studying markings and elements of historical weapons, these represent beliefs and symbolism of the period and culture, and must be considered regardless of modern perceptions. I hope this will lead to perspective which might help discover the most plausible explanation for these most interesting markings! All the best, Jim

22nd January 2007, 03:10 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,767	Thanks very much Fenris! Good info on the 'broad arrow' marking....its amazing how much history is behind these basic markings on weapons All best regards, Jim