Nice Old Katar With a Little Restoration

CharlesS · 1st October 2013, 04:15 PM

I just bought this katar last weekend, and the seller and I both agreed it could use a little work to look better, but it clearly had a very good, old wootz blade of very high contrast, and just short of being a ladder pattern. Much of the silver had tarnished black as had the scabbard fittings. The scabbard's fabric had dry rotted and was hanging on in tatters.

Not a terrible amount of work was involved in revealing more of the floral silver work.

The scabbard was a different story....and was a lot of work to build up the areas of broken wood and recover it. I still need to let the velvet fade a little for a more natural appearance. A polish revealed gorgeous silver fittings. I especially like the heads up peacocks that line the top of the chape.

I believe this katar to be at least early 19th century and perhaps older. I am anxious to hear what others think about its age. The blade looks custom made for it and is not a blade from a broken sword or a foreign blade.

Sorry I didn't take a "before" pic, but believe me, this is an improvement over its original look!

Runjeet Singh · 1st October 2013, 05:00 PM

Hi Charles,

A quick answer, before I shoot out for the evening.....

Nice piece - my gut tells me 18thC. The quality and amount of silver work applied to the hilt, is what I'm going by.

The size and proportions seem to reflect early katars found in the South of India - in fact there is where I would place it - possibly the Deccan plateau.

If I have time later I will have a look through some books and try give you info on the floral patters. But they look distinctly Moghul, and the silver peacocks look Southern/Deccani.

So I suppose that's my synopsis - 18th (late 17th?) from the Deccan Plateau.

Regards,
Runjeet

Battara · 1st October 2013, 11:11 PM

Best South Indian katar I've seen.

Question: Never seen a South Indian katar with wootz. Is this common or unusual?

Jens Nordlunde · 2nd October 2013, 09:48 PM

I find it is a very nice katar, although I find the pictures somewhat out of focus.
A thing which makes me wonder is, what is south India?
To my opinion we have the NW, Punjab, Rajasthan, Deccan (the Deccan Sultanates) and south India.
Correct me if I am wrong.
Jens

CharlesS · 2nd October 2013, 09:52 PM

Apologies for the pics. I am not the best photographer nor is my camera the best.

Runjeet Singh · 2nd October 2013, 10:54 PM

Jens,

I'm not sure what your question is, but my email was me thinking out loud, so let me say clearly where I think it is from. I see influences from early South Indian Katars (Tanjore principally), but I think this has more Islamic influence, and therefore I would place it coming from the Deccan.

I think the Deccan makers were good at fusing North and South together. I think the dagger I picture below is again from the Deccan, but takes the tiger tooth hilt from the North, and the blade from the South.

Regards,
Runjeet

laEspadaAncha · 2nd October 2013, 11:04 PM

With regards to the katar, all I can say is, "

!"

It's an absolute stunner - if one was to have just one katar in their collection, IMO this would serve the role nicely!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

I find it is a very nice katar, although I find the pictures somewhat out of focus.
A thing which makes me wonder is, what is south India?
To my opinion we have the NW, Punjab, Rajasthan, Deccan (the Deccan Sultanates) and south India.
Correct me if I am wrong.
Jens

I think the confusion might arise from the use of the Deccan as more of a geographical description, exclusive from the cultural distinction between South Indians and north... The Deccan Plateau most definitely extends into areas of the subcontinent historically occupied by South Indians (e.g., the Vijayanagar Empire extended well onto the plateau).

South Indians generally consider Marathis (Bombay) as "South Indians," though I've met more than a few Marathis who consider themselves northerners (my word). I guess it all depends on one's perspective!

Richard G · 5th October 2013, 12:46 PM

Excuse me if this is a ridiculous question, but could the hilt be Bidriware? It seems an obvious material for a decorated hilt but I can't say I've seen many, or even any; perhaps it is too brittle.
I would be interested in opinions.
Best wishes
Richard

Jens Nordlunde · 5th October 2013, 04:46 PM

Runjeet, my point was, that some use the term South India for everything south of Rajasthan - and I find that wrong.
I agree with you that it is Deccani, and to say 18th century might also be right.
Your Tiger Tooth is interesting, as I think it could be from South India, and not from Deccan, due to the decoration on the blade.
Does the decoration not show two peacocks, maybe not easily seen if you don't know what to look for, with their tails meeting in the middle of the blade to form the cypress/tree of life?
Jens

Runjeet Singh · 8th October 2013, 10:09 AM

Jens,

I also agree about the generalisation of the term South India - there is obviously a geographical and technical answer to what is South India, but historically I would certainly consider the language spoken and the race of people (ie. Dravidian).

I think you are right about the Tiger Tooth - I'm sure you noticed it shares the same blade style found on South Indian hooded Katars- but I have to admit you have lost me a little on the peacocks - I have attached a close up for you to examine and if possible mark where you see them.

Kind Regards,
Runjeet

Jens Nordlunde · 8th October 2013, 03:33 PM

Runjeet, I think it is a pity to change the discussion on Charles' thread, so I will make it short.
The decoration on the blade, is not ment for the on being stapped to admire, but for the one holding the dagger. You will have to turn the decoration 180 degrees. If I am right the decoration on you dagger is very stylized. The peacocks turn their back towards the edge, and their heads towards the middle of the blade.

asomotif · 8th October 2013, 09:57 PM

Sorry, I can not be of much help with the age.

But what a wonderfull elegant weapon and the combination with the red scabbard is great, even when the velvet is still brand new.

Best regards,
Willem

Runjeet Singh · 8th October 2013, 10:27 PM

Thanks for your info Jens - I'll certainly study it further - and thank you for sharing your lovely Katar Charles (and for allowing us to hi-jack your thread!).

Regards,
Runjeet

Battara · 8th October 2013, 11:49 PM

Now that we are back on the katar, I'll ask again:

Is wootz common for this type of katar or unusual?

I have not seen any South Indian (or similar katars) with wootz.

Jens Nordlunde · 9th October 2013, 01:26 PM

Sorry, you should have had an answer earlier, but I suppose others could have stepped in and answered your question.
Different types of katars were used in south India, but I suppose you in this case mean katars, where the blade is riveted onto the hilt.
A lot of these blade were of European origin, and not made of wootz, but Indian blades were also used, and in this cases it is not unusual to see blades made of wootz.

1st October 2013, 04:15 PM	#1
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,855	Nice Old Katar With a Little Restoration I just bought this katar last weekend, and the seller and I both agreed it could use a little work to look better, but it clearly had a very good, old wootz blade of very high contrast, and just short of being a ladder pattern. Much of the silver had tarnished black as had the scabbard fittings. The scabbard's fabric had dry rotted and was hanging on in tatters. Not a terrible amount of work was involved in revealing more of the floral silver work. The scabbard was a different story....and was a lot of work to build up the areas of broken wood and recover it. I still need to let the velvet fade a little for a more natural appearance. A polish revealed gorgeous silver fittings. I especially like the heads up peacocks that line the top of the chape. I believe this katar to be at least early 19th century and perhaps older. I am anxious to hear what others think about its age. The blade looks custom made for it and is not a blade from a broken sword or a foreign blade. Sorry I didn't take a "before" pic, but believe me, this is an improvement over its original look! Attached Images Last edited by CharlesS; 1st October 2013 at 09:30 PM.

2nd October 2013, 10:54 PM	#6
Runjeet Singh Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Warwickshire, England Posts: 150	Jens, I'm not sure what your question is, but my email was me thinking out loud, so let me say clearly where I think it is from. I see influences from early South Indian Katars (Tanjore principally), but I think this has more Islamic influence, and therefore I would place it coming from the Deccan. I think the Deccan makers were good at fusing North and South together. I think the dagger I picture below is again from the Deccan, but takes the tiger tooth hilt from the North, and the blade from the South. Regards, Runjeet Attached Images

8th October 2013, 10:09 AM	#10
Runjeet Singh Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Warwickshire, England Posts: 150	Jens, I also agree about the generalisation of the term South India - there is obviously a geographical and technical answer to what is South India, but historically I would certainly consider the language spoken and the race of people (ie. Dravidian). I think you are right about the Tiger Tooth - I'm sure you noticed it shares the same blade style found on South Indian hooded Katars- but I have to admit you have lost me a little on the peacocks - I have attached a close up for you to examine and if possible mark where you see them. Kind Regards, Runjeet Attached Images

1st October 2013, 05:00 PM	#2
Runjeet Singh Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Warwickshire, England Posts: 150	Hi Charles, A quick answer, before I shoot out for the evening..... Nice piece - my gut tells me 18thC. The quality and amount of silver work applied to the hilt, is what I'm going by. The size and proportions seem to reflect early katars found in the South of India - in fact there is where I would place it - possibly the Deccan plateau. If I have time later I will have a look through some books and try give you info on the floral patters. But they look distinctly Moghul, and the silver peacocks look Southern/Deccani. So I suppose that's my synopsis - 18th (late 17th?) from the Deccan Plateau. Regards, Runjeet

1st October 2013, 11:11 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Best South Indian katar I've seen. Question: Never seen a South Indian katar with wootz. Is this common or unusual?

2nd October 2013, 09:48 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	I find it is a very nice katar, although I find the pictures somewhat out of focus. A thing which makes me wonder is, what is south India? To my opinion we have the NW, Punjab, Rajasthan, Deccan (the Deccan Sultanates) and south India. Correct me if I am wrong. Jens

2nd October 2013, 09:52 PM	#5
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,855	Apologies for the pics. I am not the best photographer nor is my camera the best.

5th October 2013, 12:46 PM	#8
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 402	Excuse me if this is a ridiculous question, but could the hilt be Bidriware? It seems an obvious material for a decorated hilt but I can't say I've seen many, or even any; perhaps it is too brittle. I would be interested in opinions. Best wishes Richard

5th October 2013, 04:46 PM	#9
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Runjeet, my point was, that some use the term South India for everything south of Rajasthan - and I find that wrong. I agree with you that it is Deccani, and to say 18th century might also be right. Your Tiger Tooth is interesting, as I think it could be from South India, and not from Deccan, due to the decoration on the blade. Does the decoration not show two peacocks, maybe not easily seen if you don't know what to look for, with their tails meeting in the middle of the blade to form the cypress/tree of life? Jens

8th October 2013, 03:33 PM	#11
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Runjeet, I think it is a pity to change the discussion on Charles' thread, so I will make it short. The decoration on the blade, is not ment for the on being stapped to admire, but for the one holding the dagger. You will have to turn the decoration 180 degrees. If I am right the decoration on you dagger is very stylized. The peacocks turn their back towards the edge, and their heads towards the middle of the blade.

8th October 2013, 09:57 PM	#12
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,221	Sorry, I can not be of much help with the age. But what a wonderfull elegant weapon and the combination with the red scabbard is great, even when the velvet is still brand new. Best regards, Willem

8th October 2013, 10:27 PM	#13
Runjeet Singh Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Warwickshire, England Posts: 150	Thanks for your info Jens - I'll certainly study it further - and thank you for sharing your lovely Katar Charles (and for allowing us to hi-jack your thread!). Regards, Runjeet

8th October 2013, 11:49 PM	#14
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Now that we are back on the katar, I'll ask again: Is wootz common for this type of katar or unusual? I have not seen any South Indian (or similar katars) with wootz.

9th October 2013, 01:26 PM	#15
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Sorry, you should have had an answer earlier, but I suppose others could have stepped in and answered your question. Different types of katars were used in south India, but I suppose you in this case mean katars, where the blade is riveted onto the hilt. A lot of these blade were of European origin, and not made of wootz, but Indian blades were also used, and in this cases it is not unusual to see blades made of wootz.