Origin ?

Michel · 10th December 2008, 09:36 AM

A strange weapon.
Blade is not brass, as it looks on the photo, but iron (steel ?)
Shape is curious; coming from East Africa ? ou South east Asia ?
Grip in wood with a shape that could also come from East Africa (Somalia ?)
Blade does not appears to be forged but the filed from a blade of 4.5 milimeter thickness.
Does anybody have a clue ?
Thanks for any information.
Regards
Michel

Bill M · 10th December 2008, 10:01 AM

Looks like an east African design made from a file.

Andrew · 10th December 2008, 01:43 PM

A "gile" from a file!

Michel · 10th December 2008, 05:54 PM

Thanks to both Bill and Andrew. after a search a "gile" certainly. From a file ?
The original file would have been very wide and thick !
No other explanation for this grid on the blade ?
Thanks

Regards
Michel

Lew · 11th December 2008, 10:08 PM

Michel

It's a gile Afar or Danakil tribe. The blades are forged from truck leaf springs or large files or rasps as is yours.

Click=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ma5G1...eature=related

Lew

Michel · 11th December 2008, 10:37 PM

Thank you Lew,
You are certainly right, I found your gile after a search with the name "gile" that was given by Andrew. I am just surprise by the file idea but I cannot explain the scratched network otherwise.
I have no sheath but as I paid 7$ for the blade, I think I did well !
Michel : :

Lew · 11th December 2008, 10:57 PM

Michel

Files are usually made from good tool steel and old worn out files are seldomly discarded they are recycled into blades. I have a huge pesh that was forged from an old file I will see if I can find you a picture of it.

Lew

Michel · 12th December 2008, 07:52 AM

Thank you Lew,
I can conclude that the blade of the Gile was really forged and not obtained by stock removal. This means also that it must have been forged with several files that have been heat welded. This demonstrate a good control of the forging process and a sizable consumption of charcoal. When one looks to your video on the Afar tribe dancing, the number of gile shown, seems to indicate that these blades are currently produced in relatively high number. All this means high consumption of charcoal which should be scarce in the region as it is very dry and with little vegetation. Very surprising.
Thanks for this information.
Regards
Michel

asomotif · 12th December 2008, 10:00 AM

I am not a metalurgist, but with my practical knowledge I have a few questions / remarks.

- A file is hard and brittle. not the best material to make a knife
- a file is often not as broad as this knife is.
- a file's surface is often flat while this blade is getting thinner towards the edges is away that I have never seen in a file.
So if you would reshape a file, the original grooves of the filw ould remain vissible in th emiddle but surely not towards the edges.

So my idea is that this knife is not made from a file, but maybe the grooves/stripes are caused by shaping the steel, with a very rough file.
So in fact they are filling marks

Lew · 12th December 2008, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

I am not a metalurgist, but with my practical knowledge I have a few questions / remarks.

- A file is hard and brittle. not the best material to make a knife
- a file is often not as broad as this knife is.
- a file's surface is often flat while this blade is getting thinner towards the edges is away that I have never seen in a file.
So if you would reshape a file, the original grooves of the filw ould remain vissible in th emiddle but surely not towards the edges.

So my idea is that this knife is not made from a file, but maybe the grooves/stripes are caused by shaping the steel, with a very rough file.
So in fact they are filling marks

Asomotif

Knives have been forged from files for hundreds of years. Many American revolutionary black smiths used them as their source of steel which was hard to come by in those days.Yes files are quite hard but the smith anneals them in the forge to soften them up. When you forge the hammer blows spread the tapers out in the file which widens the profile of the blade being made. I collected custom made forged knives for years before getting into antique knives and I have owned many knives forged from files,rasps and even steel cable.

Lew

Ferguson · 12th December 2008, 09:18 PM

What Lew said is correct. Probably made from a rasp, which has large coarse teeth made for cutting soft material like wood.

Files and rasps come in all sizes, some fairly large. As the blade is forged down to a thin edge, it gets wider, and retains the pattern of the teeth.

Files are hard and brittle because of the heat treatment. They are made that way to cut steel. Brittleness is not an issue because there is no impact involved. Further tempering (heating at a low temp, maybe 350 fareinheit) reduces hardness and increases toughness, which is what you want for a knife blade.

This gile was forged from a file, or rasp.

Edit:
A file that is .25" thick by 1.5" wide has a cross sectional area of .375 square inches.
A diamond shaped blade .1875" thick at the center, 3" wide has a cross sectional area of only .2813 square inches.
So it's easy to see that a rectangular file could be forged into a fairly wide diamond sectioned blade.

Steve

asomotif · 12th December 2008, 10:40 PM

Thanks Lew ann Steve for the explanation !

I am happy that I already excused myself as not being a metalurgist.

Quote:

the hammer blows spread the tapers out in the file

This is indeed one of the things that I overlooked when drawing my conclusions.
Not to speak about the temperature issues and the square inch calculation

Best regards,
Willem

10th December 2008, 09:36 AM	#1
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Origin ? A strange weapon. Blade is not brass, as it looks on the photo, but iron (steel ?) Shape is curious; coming from East Africa ? ou South east Asia ? Grip in wood with a shape that could also come from East Africa (Somalia ?) Blade does not appears to be forged but the filed from a blade of 4.5 milimeter thickness. Does anybody have a clue ? Thanks for any information. Regards Michel Attached Images

10th December 2008, 05:54 PM	#4
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	A gile Thanks to both Bill and Andrew. after a search a "gile" certainly. From a file ? The original file would have been very wide and thick ! No other explanation for this grid on the blade ? Thanks Regards Michel

11th December 2008, 10:08 PM	#5
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Michel It's a gile Afar or Danakil tribe. The blades are forged from truck leaf springs or large files or rasps as is yours. Click= http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ma5G1...eature=related Lew Attached Images

11th December 2008, 10:37 PM	#6
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	A gile Thank you Lew, You are certainly right, I found your gile after a search with the name "gile" that was given by Andrew. I am just surprise by the file idea but I cannot explain the scratched network otherwise. I have no sheath but as I paid 7$ for the blade, I think I did well ! Michel : :

11th December 2008, 10:57 PM	#7
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Michel Files are usually made from good tool steel and old worn out files are seldomly discarded they are recycled into blades. I have a huge pesh that was forged from an old file I will see if I can find you a picture of it. Lew Attached Images

10th December 2008, 10:01 AM	#2
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Looks like an east African design made from a file.

10th December 2008, 01:43 PM	#3
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	A "gile" from a file!

12th December 2008, 07:52 AM	#8
Michel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 139	Old file utilisation Thank you Lew, I can conclude that the blade of the Gile was really forged and not obtained by stock removal. This means also that it must have been forged with several files that have been heat welded. This demonstrate a good control of the forging process and a sizable consumption of charcoal. When one looks to your video on the Afar tribe dancing, the number of gile shown, seems to indicate that these blades are currently produced in relatively high number. All this means high consumption of charcoal which should be scarce in the region as it is very dry and with little vegetation. Very surprising. Thanks for this information. Regards Michel

12th December 2008, 10:00 AM	#9
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,221	I am not a metalurgist, but with my practical knowledge I have a few questions / remarks. - A file is hard and brittle. not the best material to make a knife - a file is often not as broad as this knife is. - a file's surface is often flat while this blade is getting thinner towards the edges is away that I have never seen in a file. So if you would reshape a file, the original grooves of the filw ould remain vissible in th emiddle but surely not towards the edges. So my idea is that this knife is not made from a file, but maybe the grooves/stripes are caused by shaping the steel, with a very rough file. So in fact they are filling marks

12th December 2008, 09:18 PM	#11
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	What Lew said is correct. Probably made from a rasp, which has large coarse teeth made for cutting soft material like wood. Files and rasps come in all sizes, some fairly large. As the blade is forged down to a thin edge, it gets wider, and retains the pattern of the teeth. Files are hard and brittle because of the heat treatment. They are made that way to cut steel. Brittleness is not an issue because there is no impact involved. Further tempering (heating at a low temp, maybe 350 fareinheit) reduces hardness and increases toughness, which is what you want for a knife blade. This gile was forged from a file, or rasp. Edit: A file that is .25" thick by 1.5" wide has a cross sectional area of .375 square inches. A diamond shaped blade .1875" thick at the center, 3" wide has a cross sectional area of only .2813 square inches. So it's easy to see that a rectangular file could be forged into a fairly wide diamond sectioned blade. Steve Last edited by Ferguson; 12th December 2008 at 09:28 PM.