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3rd April 2018, 02:02 AM | #1 |
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Example: Greaves-Winston typology
2. Kachin - northern minority group, whose dha featured a short hand, straight blade with square tip http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/C0034.htm |
3rd April 2018, 02:19 AM | #2 |
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Example: Greaves-Winston typology
3. Shan - northern minority whose dha, featured lotus bud pommel, medium size handle and curved blade |
3rd April 2018, 02:23 AM | #3 |
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Also a more detailed article was written by Ian, Mark & Andrew for the History of Steel in Eastern Asia exhibition in Macao in 2006.
Thankfully the website for the exhibition is still working, it is a great reference. THE SWORDS OF CONTINENTAL SOUTHEAST ASIA Ian A. Greaves, Mark I. Bowditch & Andrew Y. Winston http://www.arscives.com/historysteel...ea.article.htm Sword list: http://www.arscives.com/historysteel....swordlist.htm Glossary: http://www.arscives.com/historysteel...a.glossary.htm |
3rd April 2018, 09:20 AM | #4 |
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Thanks Nathaniel, very useful!
Bowditch on his website, last updated July 28, 2007; "One significant change that has been made is the phasing out of the now-obsolete Greaves-Winston typing system. We have learned a lot since this was first developed, and we are able now to define types more appropriately along ethnic lines. " But he continues "As noted, not all of the pages have been updated with the new typology" I like to get a handle on the old and new typology and would be most interested in the primary sources that helped the typologies. There must be either: 1. Period accounts 2. Period drawings 3. Early photographs 4. Benchmark pieces with markings and/or sound provenance Unfortunately, no list of these seems to have been left. The Kachin type is mentioned in Egerton, 1880. I quite like Bell's little paper which is a welcome oasis in the overall lack of sources. But he too only described local conditions for smiths and not so much the types of swords made. |
3rd April 2018, 01:29 PM | #5 |
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Hello Peter:
As already noted by Nathaniel, the G-W classification was an attempt by Andrew and myself to describe different types of Burmese dha. This had been attempted earlier by Carter Rila, a former contributor on this Forum, who had written an article in Blade magazine in the 1970s on the "Kachin" and "Shan" styles of blades. We expanded these and subsequently added a Burmese category, or what Andrew and Mark labeled the "metro" style. Although never really explicitly stated, our classification was focused on swords of Burma because these seemed easier to understand than the more varied Thai/Lao/Cambodian daab (not to mention the similar swords made in Yunnan). Not surprisingly, the rather simplistic approach we took was soon found wanting. One of the earliest concerns was the "Kachin" designation, which needed to address both the traditional Kachin dao in its open-faced scabbard and the more sword-like, square-ended dha that we were labeling as "Kachin" style. When we learned that many of the Kachin-style dha were made by the Shan as well as other groups in Yunnan, to be sold on to the Kachin, then the classification fell apart. As an aside, there are comments from Europeans studying the Kachin people in the 19th C. that indicate the Kachin largely changed from their traditional dao to the Shan swords during the second half of the 19th C. Why they did so is an unanswered question. In rethinking the subject of classifying dha/daab, I believe we need to consider a mix of ethnic and geographic features and the time periods in which these weapons were produced. One particularly interesting ethno-geographic area is the confluence of Shan/Thai/Lao/Southern Yunnan groups located in parts of Burma, Thailand, Laos and China that is often referred to as the Golden Triangle and renowned for its opium production. This area is a melting pot for dha/daab enthusiasts and continues to produce high quality blades. Peter, I'm pleased to hear your interest in dha and their classification. The real knowledge of these weapons lies within the various cultures and I think there is often a reluctance to share that cultural information with outsiders. I know of a couple of people who have penetrated local Thai groups and learned a great deal, but it is a rare event. If you have some specific questions then please post them here and perhaps we can all improve our collective knowledge. Regards, Ian. |
3rd April 2018, 03:54 PM | #6 |
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My humble offering, silver and bronze grip inscribed in burmese with a Phoenix bird. shortish grip & ornate pommel. Last time i posted it, no one could translate. Any additional info would be appreciated.
Last edited by kronckew; 3rd April 2018 at 04:15 PM. |
4th April 2018, 04:51 AM | #7 | |
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Quote:
Not so humble IMO. Very nice dha with an unusual hilt. I cannot translate the Burmese script unfortunately. Ian. |
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5th April 2018, 07:45 PM | #8 | |
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Quote:
I called in a favor and a friend translated. Last edited by Nathaniel; 5th April 2018 at 08:55 PM. |
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3rd April 2018, 05:59 PM | #9 | ||||
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Hi Ian,
So nice to hear from you! Quote:
I found it quite interesting to read that a scholar from China's east coast would recommend a sword from a tribal region, but I later found out that Yunnan had huge iron deposits and has been a sword making center for about two milennia. Bell notes they also catered to Burma, this text implies they also catered to the Chinese upper-class. It makes one wonder, how many Chinese and SE Asian swords we're looking at with Yunnan-made blades. Quote:
Quote:
My main area is Chinese arms of the Qing dynasty and lots of misinformation here actually comes "from the culture's own oral traditions". While there are some pearls of wisdom to be found, a lot of information shared in training halls today, or by revival craftsmen, is proven plain wrong by the Qing's own administrative texts. Unfortunately, I don't think such vast documentation survives from Burma and surrounding areas so maybe we indeed have no choice. Quote:
Do you know what source this info is from? I would love to learn more, for example when it was observed and by whom. Thanks so far! |
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4th April 2018, 04:45 AM | #10 |
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Hi Peter,
Yes, southern and western Yunnan is an interesting source of swords and trade into neighboring areas. Nathan was very helpful in identifying the Achang people from the HuSa area who have a long history of bladesmithing. Legend has it that these people are descended from Ming soldiers sent to Yunnan in the 14th C. and who stayed on. There are some very well made and serviceable blades that still come from these smiths. In the northern part of the Burmese-China border, there is trade with the Kachin, Lisu, Naga, and north into Assam and Tibet. Further south we see their influence into eastern Burma, the Shan States, northern Thailand, Laos, and as far east as Vietnam. I have several of the HuSa dha and dao, marked with the regional name in Chinese characters. The Achang people identify mostly with the Shan, also a distinguished Chinese race that was forced south about 800-900 years ago. I would encourage you to research the swords of Yunnan from a Chinese perspective, as much of what has been discussed here has been from the viewpoint of infiltration of these weapons into neighboring areas of mainland SE Asia. Ian. |
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