Keris with a „spear-point-blade“

David · 18th August 2020, 04:11 PM

To bring this back to the original heading description, i don't think i would describe this blade as having a "spear point".
JustYS called this dhapur Karno Tinanding, but it is not quite that either in spite of the two kembang kacang. It has a gonjo like keris sepang, which you would not find on Karno Tinanding.
I suspect that this is a fairly recent keris that has been aged for that effect. So yes, it is an unusual dhapur, but then we see many unusual dhapur in more recent keris and often they are aged to give the look of being antique because many other like yourself Thomas (and to some extent even myself), enjoy finding older keris with unusual, even out of pakem dhapurs.
I'm am not sure what would be a proper name for this dhapur. Karno Tinanding/Sepang? Maybe someone will come up with something more creative than that.

thomas hauschild · 18th August 2020, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

To bring this back to the original heading description, i don't think i would describe this blade as having a "spear point".
JustYS called this dhapur Karno Tinanding, but it is not quite that either in spite of the two kembang kacang. It has a gonjo like keris sepang, which you would not find on Karno Tinanding.
I suspect that this is a fairly recent keris that has been aged for that effect. So yes, it is an unusual dhapur, but then we see many unusual dhapur in more recent keris and often they are aged to give the look of being antique because many other like yourself Thomas (and to some extent even myself), enjoy finding older keris with unusual, even out of pakem dhapurs.
I'm am not sure what would be a proper name for this dhapur. Karno Tinanding/Sepang? Maybe someone will come up with something more creative than that.

Many thanks david

A. G. Maisey · 18th August 2020, 10:14 PM

If we look at the wilah of this keris it is Semar Tinandu, but this dhapur would normally have a gonjo with a sirah cecak, with this keris under discussion, the gonjo seems to be divorced from the wilah, it is out of place, doesn't belong.

I'd be inclined to call it a variation of Semar Tinandu.

Jean · 19th August 2020, 10:18 AM

I have a similar piece which looks to have some age, see pic.

Jean · 20th August 2020, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I'd be inclined to call it a variation of Semar Tinandu.

Hello Alan,
Dapur Semar Tinandu as described on page 25 of the book Dhapur (Surakarta pakem) and in the book Keris Jawa is quite different from this one? (single kembang kacang and long sogokan to the point especially).
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 20th August 2020, 09:30 AM

Yes Jean, it is, but I didn't bother to look at the Ska pakem or anything else, I was running on memory, and that memory is ingrained from personal experience.

If you look at Ensiklopedi you will see that not everybody uses the Ska Pakem all the time. In fact, there is more than a little variation between the Ska pakem and what people in the trade, and collectors who work with keris call particular dhapurs.

I'm pretty OK with staying with the Ska pakem most of the time, but that doesn't mean that I use those designations all the time. I like the Ska pakem because I think most people are now aware of it and use it and understand it. But I'm not averse to using something else if it fits.

I'm never going to get all upset about things if somebody wants to call something a different dhapur or pamor. There is in fact no real standard, when you're part of group you try to stay with what the group understands because it avoids argument.

Nothing to do with keris is carved in stone.

For instance, that similar keris you posted a pic of. If it did not have kembang kacang I'd call it Dhapur Regol. Now go and have a look at Regol in the Ska Pakem, then look at Regol in Ensiklopedi. Neither one is unquestionably right nor wrong, but because the Ska Pakem was composed under the aegis of the kraton, it is taken as having more authority. Harsrinuksmo gathered his info from present day collectors and keris study groups.

Take your pick.

If you care to do a dhapur by dhapur comparison of the ska pakem with other references you will find more than a little variation.

Jean · 20th August 2020, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

For instance, that similar keris you posted a pic of. If it did not have kembang kacang I'd call it Dhapur Regol. Now go and have a look at Regol in the Ska Pakem, then look at Regol in Ensiklopedi. Neither one is unquestionably right nor wrong, but because the Ska Pakem was composed under the aegis of the kraton, it is taken as having more authority. Harsrinuksmo gathered his info from present day collectors and keris study groups.

Take your pick.

If you care to do a dhapur by dhapur comparison of the ska pakem with other references you will find more than a little variation.

Hello Alan,
Yes, you are correct. BTW the descriptions of one of the versions of dhapur Karna Tinanding and Semar Tinandu in the EK are very similar.

A. G. Maisey · 20th August 2020, 09:25 PM

Yes.

I don't really know when all these naming conventions took root, my guess is probably during Mataram. The very simple dhapurs and pamors seem to be pretty constant in the naming used, but the the more complex ones vary a lot. Its probably always best to qualify whatever name we use. I don't always do this, but I should try to get into the habit, Trouble is I mostly write off the top of my head, from memory, I'm too lazy to try to find a reference to substantiate everything I say --- and often I cannot in any case.

19th August 2020, 10:18 AM	#4
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	I have a similar piece which looks to have some age, see pic. Attached Images

18th August 2020, 04:11 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,047	To bring this back to the original heading description, i don't think i would describe this blade as having a "spear point". JustYS called this dhapur Karno Tinanding, but it is not quite that either in spite of the two kembang kacang. It has a gonjo like keris sepang, which you would not find on Karno Tinanding. I suspect that this is a fairly recent keris that has been aged for that effect. So yes, it is an unusual dhapur, but then we see many unusual dhapur in more recent keris and often they are aged to give the look of being antique because many other like yourself Thomas (and to some extent even myself), enjoy finding older keris with unusual, even out of pakem dhapurs. I'm am not sure what would be a proper name for this dhapur. Karno Tinanding/Sepang? Maybe someone will come up with something more creative than that.

18th August 2020, 10:14 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,738	If we look at the wilah of this keris it is Semar Tinandu, but this dhapur would normally have a gonjo with a sirah cecak, with this keris under discussion, the gonjo seems to be divorced from the wilah, it is out of place, doesn't belong. I'd be inclined to call it a variation of Semar Tinandu.

20th August 2020, 09:30 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,738	Yes Jean, it is, but I didn't bother to look at the Ska pakem or anything else, I was running on memory, and that memory is ingrained from personal experience. If you look at Ensiklopedi you will see that not everybody uses the Ska Pakem all the time. In fact, there is more than a little variation between the Ska pakem and what people in the trade, and collectors who work with keris call particular dhapurs. I'm pretty OK with staying with the Ska pakem most of the time, but that doesn't mean that I use those designations all the time. I like the Ska pakem because I think most people are now aware of it and use it and understand it. But I'm not averse to using something else if it fits. I'm never going to get all upset about things if somebody wants to call something a different dhapur or pamor. There is in fact no real standard, when you're part of group you try to stay with what the group understands because it avoids argument. Nothing to do with keris is carved in stone. For instance, that similar keris you posted a pic of. If it did not have kembang kacang I'd call it Dhapur Regol. Now go and have a look at Regol in the Ska Pakem, then look at Regol in Ensiklopedi. Neither one is unquestionably right nor wrong, but because the Ska Pakem was composed under the aegis of the kraton, it is taken as having more authority. Harsrinuksmo gathered his info from present day collectors and keris study groups. Take your pick. If you care to do a dhapur by dhapur comparison of the ska pakem with other references you will find more than a little variation.

20th August 2020, 09:25 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,738	Yes. I don't really know when all these naming conventions took root, my guess is probably during Mataram. The very simple dhapurs and pamors seem to be pretty constant in the naming used, but the the more complex ones vary a lot. Its probably always best to qualify whatever name we use. I don't always do this, but I should try to get into the habit, Trouble is I mostly write off the top of my head, from memory, I'm too lazy to try to find a reference to substantiate everything I say --- and often I cannot in any case.