Knives from the San Giorgia auction

[Marcus]

Unfortunately, the leather scabbard is beyond recovery. Fernando also pointed out in the original thread that Albacete daggers are often misidentified as plug bayonets, as is the case in a current Czerny auction. I provide a comparison picture. I estimate that the proper plug bayonet could be inserted about three inches down the bore of a 70 caliber musket with no more than 1 degree of wobble. You could not put the Albacete as much as an inch down the same bore and there would be at least 4 degrees of wobble.

[Philip]

I've always wondered about the functionality of these handles in terms of the ability to fit into a musket bore and stay in place well enough to allow the sort of movements necessary to fighting with fixed bayonets. The straight taper is somewhat understandable in that a bayonet can fit guns with bore diameters that may vary a bit from one to another (not to mention gunked up with powder fowling from repeated volley firing). But the design with medial bulge seems to be quite unstable as well, and demanding a very close matchup in diameters to allow it to stay fully and firmly seated, or even to enter the bore to any usable degree.

I've read in the literature that a lot of hunting daggers were hilted "in the style of" plug bayonets; the ones with ornamentation on them, especially featuring game animals, are probably such (as opposed to military-issue things meant to be used as bayonets).

Published in Daehnhardt/Gaier, ESPINGARDARIA PORTUGUESA, ARMURERIE LIEGEOISE (1975) are three magnificent hunting guns of royal provenance with hunting bayonets, all of plug type, photographed in place. However, the decoration on the knives doesn't match the workmanship on the barrels, in fact two of the guns appear to be a set due to identical muzzle design, yet the bayonets are totally different. Furthermore, the guns are all dated from the close of the 18th cent. to the opening of the 19th, when socket bayonets had been in military use for around a century.

Frankly, I'd be a tad nervous having to affix any blade with a tendency to wobble on the end of my gun in case a cornered boar decided to charge. Having some backup in the form of an assistant with a boar-spear sounds like a lot better bet, considering the vagaries of firepower from muzzle-loading flintlocks.

[Marcus]

Thinking about it some more, the dagger illustrated in "Armi Bianche dal Mediebo all'Eta Moderna"* is not really very similar to my Coltello. It has the grip on the top of what appears to be a single edged blade, while my piece, with a somewhat wide double-edged triangular blade almost reminds me of a Cinquedea, but not so wide.

*This title translates to “White Weapons from the Middle Ages to the Modern Age”. There are not really very many modern weapons covered and I guess “White” refers to White people, since the catalog does not cover Asian or African weapons.

[Gonzalo G]

Actually, the inscription seems to mean: "I don't have a heart. Do not trust me". It is a warning for an enemy.
Regards

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Marcus

*This title translates to “White Weapons from the Middle Ages to the Modern Age”. There are not really very many modern weapons covered and I guess “White” refers to White people, since the catalog does not cover Asian or African weapons.

Marcus, the "white" arms in the title refers not to the ethnicity of their makers or users, not at all. The term "armi bianche" or "armes-blanches" to describe weapons with blades derives from an old usage, the whiteness being compared to shining steel. (the Ottomans called a type of wootz steel "baiaz stamboul" or Istanbul "white", in a similar vein). As opposed to the sooty blackness associated with the powder fouling in the firearms of olden times. In other languages, the term "cold" is used instead -- as "kholodnoye oruzhiye" in Russian, "lengbingqi" in Chinese for the class of edged weapons. So we see a similar usage, "cold steel", in modern English.

[Gonzalo G]

Is the same in Castilian (Spanish). The term "armas blancas" means weapons made of steel (white=steel) In english "edged weapons" could include any weapon with an edge (like a bronze weapon). Not in Castiglian. But "armas blancas" do include maces or flails, which are not "edged", but also made of steel. Only taxonomies are applied on this matter, as far I can know, criteria based on materials, or criteria based on design or type of use.

Regards

[fernando]

Definitely Albacete knives are not to be plugged into gun barrels; the only doubt resides in sellers (or others) assumptions, whether being due to ignorance or for commercial reasons.
Whereas hunting bayonets, plug bayonets, bayonetas de taco, bayonetas de caça, are all correlative; whether you used them for hunting or in combat; whether you mount them in your gun when you have to parry a wounded game and you have no time for reloading or for military strategy in battle.
I guess (guess) wobbling was not much of an issue, as grip taper would be made for, or adjusted to, different barrels bore (caliber) opening, in a way to completely stick before meeting its swell; actually narrations exist in that they get so stuck that sometimes it demands for some (even mechanic) strength to take them out the barrel.

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[corrado26]

"armas blancas" in Spain, "armes blanches" in France and "Blankwaffen" in Germany are in my opinion all arms with blades of all materials.
corrado26