my last keris

[Marcokeris]

Could it be then that the scabbard suitable for receiving these dhapurs in the correct insertion (with minimal modification) is the sandang wailakat?

I write this because it is something that immediately catches my eye.

Furthermore, by rotating this scabbard by 180 degrees, as I had already written, could have a position of the kris in line with the tradition with which the kris is hung on a blawong and in line with the tradition with which the scabbard is held in hand correctly before to pull out the blade from the wailakat

[A. G. Maisey]

Marco, I am unable to comment upon your hypotheticals, but I can say that I have owned & seen a lot of keris of these forms that have been fitted in the conventional fashion to sandang walikat wrongkos.

Incidentally, we do not ever "pull the blade from the scabbard", we gently press the part of the wrongko that is in front of the sirah cecak, away from the blade, ie, the wrongko is gently removed from the blade, the blade is not removed from the wrongko.

[Marcokeris]

Yes Alan, I know well how to remove the wrongko.

I posted this topic because didn't seem so meaningless to me and it was light years away from the idea of disturbing some collector or scholar.
I also posted it to spice up this forum with new topics. A forum that, with all my respect, seems to me to have slowly gone into hibernation in recent years. A fall asleep perhaps also due to the reason that most of the Indonesian collectors and scholars have left without being replaced by new ones

[Gustav]

Radya Pustaka Museum

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Radya Pustaka Museum

Yes Gustav, the red signed keris has the inverted hilt in according with tradition.
It's a pity that in the Radia Pustaka Museum’s pic we cannot see not only the corresponding sheath (if it's a walikat, or a gayaman or a ladrang) but also how the keris is housed inside.

I am however more and more convinced that with a gayman or, even worse, with a ladrang, the insertion in the regular way would be very, but very problematic.
I say this because from the images found on texts, in this forum, in FB groups, or also on You Tube I only find post that confirm what I think and have written and I have yet to see a concrete, real evidence that proves otherwise

[A. G. Maisey]

Marco, I doubt that anybody here, or elsewhere, has any problem at all with a reversed hilt, this is not infrequent, it does occur.

The problem arises with a reverse mount to the wrongko.

In normal dress situations, and for several other reasons, this reverse mount to wrongko is simply impractical.

I do believe that there would be a reason for this reverse mount to wrongko, but whatever that reason might be, it falls outside of my experience & knowledge.

[Gustav]

For Cengkrong and Cundrik the normal position in the sheath is reversed, because reversed is the Gonjo, not the hilt.

The general problem is, as I understand it, that Marco's Keris isn't Cundrik or Cengkrong.

Well, one of Pusaka of the Empu lineage from Magetan is a Pedang-like Keris, which isn't Cundrik or Cengkrong, because it has completely different Ricikan, with reversed, quite unconventional Gonjo. So the position of it in the sheath is reversed. It is traditionally dated back to the first Empu in Magetan lineage.

What I also understand is, that Marco's Keris is a more like a Dhapur, which normally sits in the sheath the common way.

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Marco, I doubt that anybody here, or elsewhere, has any problem at all with a reversed hilt, this is not infrequent, it does occur.

The problem arises with a reverse mount to the wrongko.

In normal dress situations, and for several other reasons, this reverse mount to wrongko is simply impractical.

I do believe that there would be a reason for this reverse mount to wrongko, but whatever that reason might be, it falls outside of my experience & knowledge.

Sorry Alan, another ulterior example (image taken from the net)


1. Sheath and the keris resting over the ladrang (first pic)

2. then I ask myself the question: but how is the blade inserted?

3: I take the blade and turn it upside down
4. I take a second blade, turn it upside down and mirror it

4: I approach the two blades to the ladrang as if they were inserted and this is the result (second pic):

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

Yes Alan, I know well how to remove the wrongko.

A forum that, with all my respect, seems to me to have slowly gone into hibernation in recent years. A fall asleep perhaps also due to the reason that most of the Indonesian collectors and scholars have left without being replaced by new ones

I have to agree with you Marco, and not only the Indonesian collectors and scholars have left (with few notable exceptions of course)....

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Marco, you are very correct about the decrease in participation.

I've thought about this on & off for a long time, and other than the fact that the content of our posts tends towards a mature rather dry style, I really do not have any answers.

But that said, I have observed the style & content of the FB groups, and in terms of pure, supportable information this Keris Warung Forum does, I believe, have a great deal more to offer than any other discussion group of which I have knowledge.

Perhaps part of the problem might be that information is provided in response to questions, and most of the common questions have already been answered.

There are possibly only a very few people who are equipped to ask the uncommon questions, and even less people who can answer those questions. In fact, the really difficult questions seem to not yet have answers.

The FB groups seem to me to be rather socially orientated, social interaction seems to more prevalent than cold, hard facts.

Gustav:-

reverse mounting of a hilt is not really uncommon, the uncommon thing with Marco's keris is that it has been mounted back to front in the wrongko.

[David]

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

I also posted it to spice up this forum with new topics. A forum that, with all my respect, seems to me to have slowly gone into hibernation in recent years. A fall asleep perhaps also due to the reason that most of the Indonesian collectors and scholars have left without being replaced by new ones

The greatest of thanks from the bottom of my heart, Marco, for attempting to spice up the conversation in our sleepy little town.
As Alan has pointed out, much of the keris discussion has indeed moved to Facebook pages these days. I know this personally as i am also a moderator on not one, but two of these pages. The reasons for this migration are many.
On the language front, we are an English only forum, while FB pages allow their members to post in their native tongues. This is, of course, easier for Indonesian collectors, so they find these pages more accessible. Facebook has a built-in translation feature, though i must say that it does an awful job with Indonesian/Javanese languages. Unfortunately, our forum has no such bulit-in feature, so allowing folks to post in various languages is just not an option.
Secondly members of FB pages like the fact that there tends to be less, or less strictly regulated rules on these pages. For instance, even though the two pages i moderate do not allow selling, it is clear to me that many dealers use the pages just to display their wares and attract buyers. Of course, as a moderator i see a lot more of that than you and you may be surprised just how many on those posts never actually make it to the page. But clearly many of the posts that do are thinly veiled advertisements of keris for sale. That is obviously something we do not permit here and so we are not a friendly page for these particular members.
Thirdly, as Alan has suggested, these FB pages are far more social and less scholarly. That is not the fault of the Admins of these pages, who go to great lengths to have built up a couple of rather nice libraries of scholarly material in their "Files" sections. For me that is the best part of these FB pages, though i have a feeling only a very small percentage of members of those groups actually ever access any of these files.
Lastly, the levels of discussion on these pages rarely get beyond the cursory level. It is mostly just show and tell, often with the "tell" left off. I cannot even calculate the number of times i have asked members on these pages to elaborate on statements or support them with sources only to be met with either silence, or worse yet, indignation. Statements and claims are made regularly without any support and are simply expected to be accepted as fact without question. I am, of course, aware of certain members of good reputation that i know speak from a much deeper place of knowledge. But on a page that has more than 10,000 members it is just not possible to determine the veracity of claims that are not being backed up with anything further than "because i say so".
All this is to say that while i find these FB pages useful on many levels, i still come here when i hope to have engaging and thoughtful conversations that attempts to approach these discussions with some sense of scholarly review. And despite the possible use of different name handles, i do notice which members of the FB pages also feel the same and still post on this forum as well. You being one of them.
In the end, i am not sure there is really much that can be done to bring more collectors to our table if they are satisfied with the level of discussion they are finding in the more heavily trafficked FB pages. I do believe that it is the discerning collector who seeks as much knowledge a they can find that is wise enough to check out ALL the options for discussion they can find on the internet. It's really not too difficult to be open to all these different venues that are available as any of them are just a URL away and require just a stroke of the keyboard to arrive at.