Keris Madura with Thai influences

maxbliss888 · 8th November 2015, 12:49 PM

Tummenggungan

David · 8th November 2015, 07:37 PM

Yes Max, your keris does indeed have what some call a tumenggungan hilt that undoubtably originated in Madura. The oversized brass pendokok is a Bugis style AFAIK and inappropriate for this hilt both size-wise and culturally. The sheath form can be found on keris from both Sumatra and the Peninsula. I'll leave the origin of this blade to others. In it's current condition i am just not sure. Many times when we see keris ensembles that are a mishmash of cultures and styles to this degree they are mixes that have been slapped together my dealers in order to sell an ensemble that appears more complete. While this keris may well have been bought in Thailand it seems unlikely that calling it a Thai keris or even a keris with Thai influence is a valid or accurate descriptor.

A. G. Maisey · 9th November 2015, 11:17 AM

Max, I don't know what book you've presented a photo from, but I rather feel that the person who named that hilt form "temenggungan" is a little out of his depth.

The correct name is actually "tumenggungan", this name does not come from any flower of anything, rather it comes from the word "tumenggung", which is a part of a bupati's title. A bupati is a regent, who is responsible for the administration of a kabupaten, which is a semi-autonomous administrative district. In the old days the position of a bupati tended to pass from father to son, so the family became something like minor nobility.

The spelling "temenggungan" is a corruption which follows a local pronunciation.

The name "tumenggungan" indicates that this form of hilt would be suitable for wear by a tumenggung. The way in which the title is used is, for example, "Bupati Tumenggung Surodiningrat".

Incidentally, I probably should not be so positive as to say that this is the correct name, I probably should say that some people believe it to be the correct name.

Edit --- A further note:-

I just mentioned to an educated native speaker of Javanese the idea that the word "temu" is the name of the ginger flower, I had never heard this usage..

He laughed out loud, and commented that whoever thought that the word "temu" referred to a flower was clearly looking at the wrong end of the ginger plant.

It seems that "temu" is the word used to refer to spices that come from the root of a plant, as does ginger when used as a spice.

I did not know this, I think only a native speaker would know it.

The information in this photo caption is just about as wrong as it can be.

Paul de Souza · 9th November 2015, 03:39 PM

An old post by Dave Henkel from 2002. Gosh how time flies. How the mind fossilises. I have forgotten so much.

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000918.html

David · 9th November 2015, 04:50 PM

Hey Paul, it's nice to see that you are still lurking about these parts. Hope you are well.

Paul de Souza · 9th November 2015, 05:09 PM

Hi David. Yah. Am well. Been lurking about. Lots to catch up with. Hope u are well too.

David · 9th November 2015, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul de Souza

Hi David. Yah. Am well. Been lurking about. Lots to catch up with. Hope u are well too.

Good to hear. You do realize that your last post here was something like 9 years ago.

Hope you stick around. Your old website on keris was one of my very first sources for information so many years ago.

8th November 2015, 12:49 PM	#1
maxbliss888 Member Join Date: May 2015 Location: Bangkok Posts: 150	Hilt Tummenggungan Attached Images

9th November 2015, 11:17 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,738	Max, I don't know what book you've presented a photo from, but I rather feel that the person who named that hilt form "temenggungan" is a little out of his depth. The correct name is actually "tumenggungan", this name does not come from any flower of anything, rather it comes from the word "tumenggung", which is a part of a bupati's title. A bupati is a regent, who is responsible for the administration of a kabupaten, which is a semi-autonomous administrative district. In the old days the position of a bupati tended to pass from father to son, so the family became something like minor nobility. The spelling "temenggungan" is a corruption which follows a local pronunciation. The name "tumenggungan" indicates that this form of hilt would be suitable for wear by a tumenggung. The way in which the title is used is, for example, "Bupati Tumenggung Surodiningrat". Incidentally, I probably should not be so positive as to say that this is the correct name, I probably should say that some people believe it to be the correct name. Edit --- A further note:- I just mentioned to an educated native speaker of Javanese the idea that the word "temu" is the name of the ginger flower, I had never heard this usage.. He laughed out loud, and commented that whoever thought that the word "temu" referred to a flower was clearly looking at the wrong end of the ginger plant. It seems that "temu" is the word used to refer to spices that come from the root of a plant, as does ginger when used as a spice. I did not know this, I think only a native speaker would know it. The information in this photo caption is just about as wrong as it can be. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 9th November 2015 at 11:43 AM. Reason: additional information

9th November 2015, 03:39 PM	#4
Paul de Souza Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 65	Keris Sari Bulan An old post by Dave Henkel from 2002. Gosh how time flies. How the mind fossilises. I have forgotten so much. http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000918.html

8th November 2015, 07:37 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,047	Yes Max, your keris does indeed have what some call a tumenggungan hilt that undoubtably originated in Madura. The oversized brass pendokok is a Bugis style AFAIK and inappropriate for this hilt both size-wise and culturally. The sheath form can be found on keris from both Sumatra and the Peninsula. I'll leave the origin of this blade to others. In it's current condition i am just not sure. Many times when we see keris ensembles that are a mishmash of cultures and styles to this degree they are mixes that have been slapped together my dealers in order to sell an ensemble that appears more complete. While this keris may well have been bought in Thailand it seems unlikely that calling it a Thai keris or even a keris with Thai influence is a valid or accurate descriptor.

9th November 2015, 04:50 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,047	Hey Paul, it's nice to see that you are still lurking about these parts. Hope you are well.

9th November 2015, 05:09 PM	#6
Paul de Souza Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 65	Hi David. Yah. Am well. Been lurking about. Lots to catch up with. Hope u are well too.