Identifying Modern Wootz

ariel · 20th September 2019, 11:51 AM

Modern knives made out of crucible steel do not even approach the old wootz-y pattern and nobody except for Nonikashvili succeeded in forging a modern long wootz blade.
The metallurgical secret of wootz is no secret anymore. Modern metallurgists cracked it open.
The real secret is a process of smithing: how to force the dendrites to get organized in a beautiful pattern? Here scientific methods are powerless: we are talking about minute tricks , such as temperature, force and directions of hammer blows etc. We have irretrievably lost this information formerly transmitted orally and practically in a father-to-son manner.
I might not worry about forgeries. One glance at the blade is likely to be sufficient to identify modern manufacture. Machine-generated music is good for the elevators: it cannot compose Bach’s Prelude in E-moll.
Anosov got all the technical details from his “industrial spies” , but still, his blades were just poor imitations of true Persian or Indian wootz.

mariusgmioc · 20th September 2019, 09:59 PM

Ariel said it quite well.

To illustrate this, I include a link to the best modern wootz patterns I have seen, made by the Russian bladesmith Ivan Kirpichev.

In the first blade you can see he managed to reproduce the Kirk Narduban and the "rose" patterns...
... yet the watering pattern is easily distiguishable from the antique ones.

And he told me that he doesn't manage to get this quality of patterning with consistency.

https://knifeandcraft.com/en/ivan-kirpichev

ariel · 20th September 2019, 11:35 PM

Kirk narduban and “Rose” are easy: they are just superficial embellishments. The blade is notched either across its width or as a rounded point, then forged, polished and etched. Notching disturbs the architecture of dendrites, and... voila!
The real trick is to obtain a sophisticated pattern on the rest of the blade.

This is why I am always amused when I read some notes about sorts of wootz:
“ The highest is Kirk narduban, after that there are Kara taban, Kara Khorasan and the lowest , - Sham”
Kirk and rose can be made on any variety of wootz and I have seen them on a lowly Sham:-) And, BTW, some people claim that the “ non-pretty” Sham and the barely recognizable Indian” salt and pepper” one are mechanically the best.
The “ beautiful” ones broke on impact and there is a case when an expensive blade fell on the floor and shattered to smithereens

RobT · 21st September 2019, 03:49 AM

Ariel,

I agree with you completely. Forging the old wootz blades was a matter of learned skill. I am a fairly good finish carpenter but even if I were given exhaustively complete plans plus the best of hand and mechanical tools, I am sure that I couldn't make a Chippendale chair to match those made by the old masters. Not only did they do their work with hand tools only, they were able to make a good living in that labor intensive environment. To be able to do this, one needs a long and diligent apprenticeship under an old master who not only molds your hand/eye skills but also your mindset.

Sincerely,
RobT

MForde · 25th September 2019, 09:40 AM

Thank you all for your replies. I think I need to see more examples as the antique wootz I've seen varies greatly in pattern and so I'd love to see some visual comparisons between old and new wootz (whether in PM or posted here).

ALEX · 13th January 2021, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

...Modern knives made out of crucible steel do not even approach the old wootz-y pattern and nobody except for Nonikashvili succeeded in forging a modern long wootz blade.
...

Ariel,
I am with you... but... I saw Nonikashvili's wootz shamshir, it is impressive to say the least, the fittings are incredible, but I still doubt whether he forged that particular blade from scratch or reused old Persian wootz blade. There are other wootz blades he made shown online, most are not as impressive as that shamshir blade, not even close... why is that?
Also, have you seen
THIS post? In 2007, in London, this wootz Kilij blade was made. Not as bold as Nonikashvili wootz shamshir, but just as good as the rest of his blades (both punt and sarcasm intended). Please correct me if I am wrong and lack understanding of his work.

THIS is referenced shamshir, in his hands (post 155). Did he made that wootz blade, i.e. forged it from scratch, or did he 'finished' aka 'made' an old blade with fittings, inlay, etc.? The other wootz blades he made do not show the same quality pattern. Are there other of his swords with similar pattern to the above shamshir?

kronckew · 13th January 2021, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobT

...I am a fairly good finish carpenter but even if I were given exhaustively complete plans plus the best of hand and mechanical tools, I am sure that I couldn't make a Chippendale chair to match those made by the old masters. Not only did they do their work with hand tools only, they were able to make a good living in that labor intensive environment. To be able to do this, one needs a long and diligent apprenticeship under an old master who not only molds your hand/eye skills but also your mindset.

Sincerely,
RobT

This instantly reminded me of 'The Patriot', Benjamin Martin and his obsession with chairs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=2lvz3v_dtyA

ALEX · 8th February 2021, 09:26 AM

I was hoping for more meaningful discussion... so allow me to reignite the subject. Here are 2 newly made wootz blades: one on the left, next to old Assad'Allah blade (for comparison), is made in Turkey. One on the right is made in Finland. The first is a sword blade. Both look just as good as original, and stunning work.

mariusgmioc · 8th February 2021, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Both look just as good as original, and stunning work.

To me, both new samples look very, very different from the old wootz, and I am am surprised yo cannot see the difference.

In the old wootz, you have very fine long streaks flowing in intricately curved/twirled/watery (like winding rivers) patterns.

In the new wootz, you have short patches more like a mosaic.

PS:
I am also quite suspicious about the claims of many more or less recent wootz makers claiming they managed to fully reproduce antique wootz patterns.
Even the late Al Pendray published together with Verhoeven some images of wootz he produced (photo 1a, 1b)
that looked pretty much the same like the antique one (albeit different - please notice the more mosaic-like pattern of the base metal). Yet, none of his hundreds of wootz knives he commercially made (photo 2) displayed the same pattern. Why?!

Also much more recently, a Finnish blacksmith claimed to have reproduced exactly the patterns of antique wootz. Yet, when I asked him to make a blade with the same pattern for me to buy, he declined, saying that he still wants to refine the method.

Also the Russian Ivan Kirpichev comes very close to reproducing the antique wootz patterns (see photo 3). However, he told me he cannot make bigger blades and cannot get consistent results.

So, I believe that while some modern blacksmiths have managed to come closer to reproducing the antique wootz, none is really capable to fully do it with consistency.

However, I have seen a new sword blade that reproduced the old patterns almost perfectly, made by a Russian blacksmith and mounted by Gotscha Lagidse. Yet, it was pattern welded! But it was so deceivingly looking that reportedly even Zaqro Nonikashvili thought it to be wootz.

mariusgmioc · 8th February 2021, 11:02 AM

PPS:

It should be noted that even antique 19th century Indian or Persian wootz did not display the old watery patterns anymore as 19th century wootz looked more like the crystalline wootz that is produced these modern times.

You can see such an example of a Persian khanjar made around 1850 at the link below:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=26676

ALEX · 8th February 2021, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

...To me, both new samples look very, very different from the old wootz, and I am am surprised yo cannot see the difference...

I cannot see much difference on the right-side sample from Finland, it looks similar to antique wootz pattern, isn't it? Not all antique wootz was universally superior. We should not grade the wootz quality by its age. There was good quality and bad quality wootz regardless of when it was made. some make good quality woots now, quite similar to original.. according to the photos and sources.

Interested Party · 8th February 2021, 02:10 PM

The rt side example looks like it could have been produced by a pool and eye lamination method.

To my understanding the ore that the crucible process used affected the pattern greatly, but I know very little. Wootz seems sort of an Eldorado to me. There may be several generations of hard work before it is understood.

The Al Pendray book is on my summer reading list.

Marius, what are the two bottom examples? Marked "Resim:1"

20th September 2019, 11:35 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	J Kirk narduban and “Rose” are easy: they are just superficial embellishments. The blade is notched either across its width or as a rounded point, then forged, polished and etched. Notching disturbs the architecture of dendrites, and... voila! The real trick is to obtain a sophisticated pattern on the rest of the blade. This is why I am always amused when I read some notes about sorts of wootz: “ The highest is Kirk narduban, after that there are Kara taban, Kara Khorasan and the lowest , - Sham” Kirk and rose can be made on any variety of wootz and I have seen them on a lowly Sham:-) And, BTW, some people claim that the “ non-pretty” Sham and the barely recognizable Indian” salt and pepper” one are mechanically the best. The “ beautiful” ones broke on impact and there is a case when an expensive blade fell on the floor and shattered to smithereens Last edited by ariel; 21st September 2019 at 04:44 AM.

21st September 2019, 03:49 AM	#4
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 456	Skill is Necessary Ariel, I agree with you completely. Forging the old wootz blades was a matter of learned skill. I am a fairly good finish carpenter but even if I were given exhaustively complete plans plus the best of hand and mechanical tools, I am sure that I couldn't make a Chippendale chair to match those made by the old masters. Not only did they do their work with hand tools only, they were able to make a good living in that labor intensive environment. To be able to do this, one needs a long and diligent apprenticeship under an old master who not only molds your hand/eye skills but also your mindset. Sincerely, RobT

8th February 2021, 09:26 AM	#8
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	I was hoping for more meaningful discussion... so allow me to reignite the subject. Here are 2 newly made wootz blades: one on the left, next to old Assad'Allah blade (for comparison), is made in Turkey. One on the right is made in Finland. The first is a sword blade. Both look just as good as original, and stunning work. Attached Images

20th September 2019, 11:51 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Modern knives made out of crucible steel do not even approach the old wootz-y pattern and nobody except for Nonikashvili succeeded in forging a modern long wootz blade. The metallurgical secret of wootz is no secret anymore. Modern metallurgists cracked it open. The real secret is a process of smithing: how to force the dendrites to get organized in a beautiful pattern? Here scientific methods are powerless: we are talking about minute tricks , such as temperature, force and directions of hammer blows etc. We have irretrievably lost this information formerly transmitted orally and practically in a father-to-son manner. I might not worry about forgeries. One glance at the blade is likely to be sufficient to identify modern manufacture. Machine-generated music is good for the elevators: it cannot compose Bach’s Prelude in E-moll. Anosov got all the technical details from his “industrial spies” , but still, his blades were just poor imitations of true Persian or Indian wootz.

20th September 2019, 09:59 PM	#2
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,882	Ariel said it quite well. To illustrate this, I include a link to the best modern wootz patterns I have seen, made by the Russian bladesmith Ivan Kirpichev. In the first blade you can see he managed to reproduce the Kirk Narduban and the "rose" patterns... ... yet the watering pattern is easily distiguishable from the antique ones. And he told me that he doesn't manage to get this quality of patterning with consistency. https://knifeandcraft.com/en/ivan-kirpichev

25th September 2019, 09:40 AM	#5
MForde Member Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: UK Posts: 36	Thank you all for your replies. I think I need to see more examples as the antique wootz I've seen varies greatly in pattern and so I'd love to see some visual comparisons between old and new wootz (whether in PM or posted here).

8th February 2021, 11:02 AM	#10
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,882	PPS: It should be noted that even antique 19th century Indian or Persian wootz did not display the old watery patterns anymore as 19th century wootz looked more like the crystalline wootz that is produced these modern times. You can see such an example of a Persian khanjar made around 1850 at the link below: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=26676

8th February 2021, 02:10 PM	#12
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 392	The rt side example looks like it could have been produced by a pool and eye lamination method. To my understanding the ore that the crucible process used affected the pattern greatly, but I know very little. Wootz seems sort of an Eldorado to me. There may be several generations of hard work before it is understood. The Al Pendray book is on my summer reading list. Marius, what are the two bottom examples? Marked "Resim:1"