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19th February 2021, 04:28 PM | #1 | |
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I have hope that is not the case! there are important and technical aspects in the swords, i dont think a artist were able to recriate by himself! |
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19th February 2021, 05:26 PM | #2 | |
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(Gregorio Lopes, XVI century). . |
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19th February 2021, 06:02 PM | #3 |
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An accurate two handed sword, by same Gregorio Lopes.
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19th February 2021, 07:06 PM | #4 | |
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I would be inclined to agree with you on this, but it is not the case of inability to recreate details of certain personal weapons in portraiture of those times, but the insistence of the artist to be faithful to detail. Just as he was notably faithful to the likeness of the subject, so too were they to their weapon, as these were very personal and often represented key preference and sometimes even tradition or symbolism (note the motif in the pommels). Note the indelibly detailed weapons, even of other periods, included in the 'historic or period' paintings by various artists faithfully recreated. As Fernando well notes, there are many examples of this, with Durer and Rembrandt instantly coming to mind. The late AVB Norman chose to more accurately establish categoric identification for European hilts of these times based on their inclusion in portraits of certain persons of the time. He chose this venue as the portrait was typically of the detail mentioned and quite personal. The subject would of course approve the painting they had commissioned and I cannot imagine they would find the addition of a spurious weapon acceptable. Obviously the life spans of the subject and artist set the date range of the work, and of course the weapon. The exception would be, portraits or images of someone from earlier time being painted in tribute. As far as I know, the works consulted by Norman typically were not in this character, though he does mention a number of 'historic' paintings. In this case, the artist would indeed presume placing the weapons of the current period most likely. One more note on 'tribute' portraiture, these would quite likely be commissioned by relatives or heirs, or perhaps organizations or groups to which they were associated. In this case there is the possibility, however tenuous, that a weapon that had belonged to the passed figure might be available. Please forgive my long dissertation here, but this is a fascinating topic which I studied in degree some years ago, in fact even had wonderful contact with Mr. Norman, who graciously shared his views in our discussion. It has been a very long time since on the topic, and I truly hope we might find one or all of these depicted swords somewhere. Excellent topic!!! Thank you Bruno!!! |
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19th February 2021, 09:25 PM | #5 |
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This iconographic and enigmatic work has been subject, now during a century, to a number of different interpretations, some with rather opposite assumptions. In reality only one personality is unanimously identified in the panels, Henri the Navigator; and even that is not 100% granted for some. Without even trying to dissect the purpose and realism of all 58 figures depicted, we may view this work as a gathering of the Royal Portuguese court and representatives of the various social sectors of the XV century; in one perspective to evoke important triumphs in the expansion of North Africa by the dinasty of Aviz (1385-1580). I would take it as highly improbable that, portraying the presence of so many persons, is obviously only possible in the author's imagination; not to mention that some had already died by the date this work was done, another of the existing discussions.
This to say that i don't see the faintest possibility that the author had at his disposal real swords and lances to pose for his work; as well as the whole attire with which he portraied all those people, like dresses, metals, jewelery and all. |
20th February 2021, 12:34 AM | #6 | |
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These paitings are envolved in strange facts, have you seen any order of christ cross in the painting ? how can a meeting envolving navigators do not have any kind of item related to the most important order ? i have seen many flaws in ours history books! so many! But the swords are very detailed, the only other portuguese painting (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...es_s.paulo.jpg) that i know with similar details is the one that is suposed to be of the same painter. |
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20th February 2021, 02:21 AM | #7 |
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All very interesting. If I may interrupt the discussion, in the original post the question concerning four swords is asked. I seem to have missed something, what art work are these from? At least for my own research I would like to know myself and look further on details of the painting (s)? that might suggest the identities of the subjects.
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20th February 2021, 11:54 AM | #8 | |
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Rediscovered in 1883, only after having been restored in 1910, was exhibited to the public. It was then that the (double) central figure in the panels was identified and related with the old altarpiece of the Saint Vincent chapel in the Lisbon head cathedral, a work dated circa 1470. Saint Vincent (IV century), here dressed with the outfit of a deacon, is profoundly connected with the history of the nation; became patron of the discoveries and also of Lisbon. His tumb was restored circa 1470, which appoints for the panels to be made for such altar. As for the purpose and identification of the 58+2 persons in the work, there are no less than fourty (educated) interpretations; and still none was so far elected as the exact one. |
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20th February 2021, 12:41 PM | #9 | |||
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" In reality only one personality is unanimously identified in the panels, Henri the Navigator; and even that is not 100% granted for some " I thought i would not further expand in the two hypothesis (Zurara versus Markl) as not to be boring for the audience. Quote:
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20th February 2021, 03:42 PM | #10 |
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Thank you Fernando.
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