A kind of pesh kabz, opinion and translation please

francantolin · 13th July 2022, 05:04 PM

Hello,

Thank you Ariel for your messages,
I did some research on internet,
I found this interesting caucasian knife
Dates 1880
with an afghan damascus blade and a renforced tip.
There is a ricasso too and the horn handle looks like
mine

francantolin · 13th July 2022, 05:53 PM

The handle is interesting,
It has been modified later,
Maybe in central asia- caucasian and made for battle
with an indian or afghan older blade.
Maybe wootz, pictures seems ok...

Sure and would be really helpful ,
The translation of the cartouche.
For the date, I will add a dot and make 1309 🙂 .
No, I am kidding but it must be something like that !!
Not mid 20th century made ( for the blade )

francantolin · 13th July 2022, 06:50 PM

The shape of the steel hilt has originally a shamshir hilt shape

Indeed, I never saw a ''shamshir" hilt on a pesh kabz or a zirah bouk .
A remanied blade ?

ariel · 13th July 2022, 07:46 PM

There are plenty of khanjars and pesh kabzes with "shamshir-like" handles. Pics attached; I got them randomly from the Internet. Plenty more were omitted:-)

And yes, the handle is a replacement. Your new pics show it clearly. This, BTW, only strenghtens the idea of a respectable age of the blade.

mahratt · 13th July 2022, 07:55 PM

It is always nice to have an old item made in the 19th, and even more so in the 18th century.
But unfortunately, the knife from message #17 and the knife of the topcaster are very different from each other. It's hard to find something in common between them...
It will certainly be interesting to see the blade of the knife in question after it has been polished and etch it. Let's wait.

ariel · 13th July 2022, 08:05 PM

Just to clarify: nobody makes a direct comparison between a dagger from messages ##17/19 with the one presented by francantolin for discussion. It is viewed and discussed on its own.

francantolin · 14th July 2022, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

It is always nice to have an old item made in the 19th, and even more so in the 18th century.
But unfortunately, the knife from message #17 and the knife of the topcaster are very different from each other. It's hard to find something in common between them...
It will certainly be interesting to see the blade of the knife in question after it has been polished and etch it. Let's wait.

Hello, sure it's not the same and I didn't said it was caucasian made but here the similarities:

-afghan old blade with ricasso and a not often seen renforced tip on a "european look like battle knife"
-a new hilt made of two parts of brown horn
-a not origina bolster
-scabbard shape with final round tip
( sure, this one is all silver )

You just have to change the shape of the blade...

I'll do an etching but I need nital for reveal what seems to be cristalline wootz

mahratt · 14th July 2022, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by francantolin

Hello, sure it's not the same and I didn't said it was caucasian made but here the similarities:

-afghan old blade with ricasso and a not often seen renforced tip on a "european look like battle knife"
-a new hilt made of two parts of brown horn
-a not origina bolster
-scabbard shape with final round tip
( sure, this one is all silver )

You just have to change the shape of the blade...

I'll do an etching but I need nital for reveal what seems to be cristalline wootz

Thanks for the detailed answer, francantolin.

You see this knife from message #17 is a very strange item. Yes, of course, I think it is made in Afghanistan. But it is absolutely not traditional in form. I am sure that it was made, like your knife, under European influence and somewhere at the turn of the 19th and 20th centuries. However, unlike your knife, the knife in message #17 retains some traditional features.

The shape of the handle of your knife is not at all similar to the shape of the handle of the knife from message # 17. There is a ricasso on both knives, but you must admit that the ricasso is very different. On the knife from message No. 17, the ricasso is decorated in the traditional style. On your knife, the ricasso is undecorated and more crudely done.

ariel · 14th July 2022, 09:11 PM

Francantolin,

Right now anything we say will be pure speculation.
There is a rule:” If it wasn’t written, it never happened”. Fortunately, there is some written information on the blade that can add a lot to our final verdict.

But in any case, I am glad that our positions are getting closer and closer.

For example, ” This is a tourist item” (post #3) was changed to “ I am sure that this item was not made for tourists” ( #11)

Similarly, the proposed dating “ from its appearance, I tend to think it's late 20th century” (#9) was changed to “ your dagger is made in the middle of the 20th century” (#11) and recently to “… like your knife…somewhere at the turn of the 19th and 20th centuries” (#27). In short, there is hope for a mutually agreed upon dating.

It is an unusual blade, we do not have a statistically large enough sample with verified datings to place your example in a reasonably accurate group. This is why personal gut feelings may be very misleading.

I am waiting for the translations from my colleagues and hopefully from Kwiatek. They are likely to add a lot. I do not know what they are going to tell us , but I do not think such a simple dagger is going to bear the name of Assadulla: there was no sense to provide a spurious date to jack up its price: it was probably comparable to McDonalds “Happy Meal” :-)
I have no dog in this fight, I am just modestly curious.
I shall go with anything the translation tells us.

ariel · 13th July 2022, 06:12 PM

Very nice set, including the Caucasian " gazyrs" i.e decorated tubes with premeasured amounts of gunpowder. Although its dating is uncertain ( " circa 1880"), ithe dagger is definitely quite old, well before the 20th century. Both the reinforced tip and the " ricasso" are very prominent. Reinforced tips are seen on Persian and Indian Zirah Bouk khanjar and peshkabz blades. They are very solid and have nothing to do with the puny recent tourist items. The latter are little blobs perched on top of the long and thin distal part of the blade and likely would break off with any contact with metal mail.

And I agree with the Afghani origin of the blade: the decorative elements are " perforated", the feature adopted by the Afghanis from either Persia or S. India, (or both) sometimes in the 17-18 centuries and continued thereafter.

I still do not have any translations, but will report them as soon as I get them.

ariel · 13th July 2022, 06:18 PM

Thanks for the enlarged views of the blade of your pesh-kabz. I saw them literally 5 minutes ago. I have a suspicion that it might be wootz. Can you polish and etch it?

mahratt · 13th July 2022, 08:43 PM

Don't these words:

Quote:

Originally Posted by francantolin

There is a ricasso too and the horn handle looks like
mine

speak of comparison? Maybe I misunderstood because of my bad English? Dear forum members, correct me, please?

Ren Ren · 15th July 2022, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by francantolin

Hello,

Thank you Ariel for your messages,
I did some research on internet,
I found this interesting caucasian knife
Dates 1880
with an afghan damascus blade and a renforced tip.
There is a ricasso too and the horn handle looks like
mine

How time flies! A similar knife was sold at the Imperial auction in 2010 with the attribution "knife of the Crimean Tatars". The owner offered to discuss it in one of the Russian forums. It was a heated discussion on 37 pages!

Most of the participants - but by no means all! - came to the conclusion that this is a knife from Afghanistan.

gp · 15th July 2022, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ren Ren

It was a heated discussion on 37 pages!

and no one said "dawaj, dawaj...pashli, pashli tovarischi..."? :-)))

rough translation: hurry up, dear friends...

must have been very interesting...specially to learn about the pro and cons about it
Also makes me think or sounds like our "change of minds " in this forum are quite short and simple.

Nevertheless I think it is a beautiful piece / ochen krasivo ! Love the 2nd picture !

Ren Ren · 15th July 2022, 10:33 PM

Three of the participants in those events today are present in this topic. We were twelve years younger, had much less knowledge and much more energy and courage!

ariel · 16th July 2022, 12:35 AM

Ren Ren,
Thanks for reminding us of the courage and enthusiasm of our youthful years:-)))

As far as I remember, the main ( or the only ?) argument in favor of Crimean origin was the crooked hilt, analogous or just reminiscent of the Tatar-Circassian Ordynkas.

Saracen · 16th July 2022, 02:51 AM

In that discussion, we came to the conclusion that this formerly Persian perforation with a red background is characteristic of later Afghan weapons. Often this perforation is simply filled with red paste on Afghan weapons. Also features of the blade, which are also for Afghanistan. Yes, it's nice to remember).By the way, the scabbard in the message No. 17 is also Afghan. We didn't have a scabbard in that discussion.

Ian · 16th July 2022, 04:53 AM

Very productive discussion about these knives. With large numbers of "armor-piercing" tipped knives coming our of Rajahstan, mainly Jaipur, these days, it's good to have some historical perspective for the forerunners of these styles. While I understand many of these knives are being made or assembled in Jaipur for final distribution, it is also my understanding that similar knives are produced in Pakistan. Can you gentlemen inform us of what is happening currently and how to identify the more recently made versions?

gp · 16th July 2022, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ren Ren

Three of the participants in those events today are present in this topic. We were twelve years younger, had much less knowledge and much more energy and courage!

so you were young lads "fighting" skirmishes like Georgy Konstantinovich at Khalkhin Gol ?

ariel · 17th July 2022, 05:43 AM

Oh no, not kindergarten "skirmishes" but full blown "special military operations" :-))))
Our arguments were, as Pushkin used to say, " senseless and pitiless". Ren Ren is right: we were just too young and full of piss and vinegar.

Saracen,
Hope you noticed remnants of some "red stuff" in the pierced areas of the Afghan/Tatar dagger.
I just do not want to go through the same heated discussions again. Too old for that.

gp · 17th July 2022, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Oh no, not kindergarten "skirmishes" but full blown "special military operations" :-))))

that's why I referred to Georgy Konstantinovich ; Георгий Константинович Жуков never was the kindergarten type ....as confirmed by Ike / Eisenhower

and "Khalkhin Gol "was far from a skirmish ☺☺☺

13th July 2022, 07:46 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	There are plenty of khanjars and pesh kabzes with "shamshir-like" handles. Pics attached; I got them randomly from the Internet. Plenty more were omitted:-) And yes, the handle is a replacement. Your new pics show it clearly. This, BTW, only strenghtens the idea of a respectable age of the blade. Attached Images Last edited by ariel; 13th July 2022 at 08:06 PM.

13th July 2022, 05:04 PM	#1
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 831	Hello, Thank you Ariel for your messages, I did some research on internet, I found this interesting caucasian knife Dates 1880 with an afghan damascus blade and a renforced tip. There is a ricasso too and the horn handle looks like mine Attached Images

13th July 2022, 05:53 PM	#2
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 831	The handle is interesting, It has been modified later, Maybe in central asia- caucasian and made for battle with an indian or afghan older blade. Maybe wootz, pictures seems ok... Sure and would be really helpful , The translation of the cartouche. For the date, I will add a dot and make 1309 🙂 . No, I am kidding but it must be something like that !! Not mid 20th century made ( for the blade ) Attached Images

13th July 2022, 06:50 PM	#3
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 831	The shape of the steel hilt has originally a shamshir hilt shape Indeed, I never saw a ''shamshir" hilt on a pesh kabz or a zirah bouk . A remanied blade ? Attached Images

13th July 2022, 07:55 PM	#5
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	It is always nice to have an old item made in the 19th, and even more so in the 18th century. But unfortunately, the knife from message #17 and the knife of the topcaster are very different from each other. It's hard to find something in common between them... It will certainly be interesting to see the blade of the knife in question after it has been polished and etch it. Let's wait.

13th July 2022, 08:05 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Just to clarify: nobody makes a direct comparison between a dagger from messages ##17/19 with the one presented by francantolin for discussion. It is viewed and discussed on its own.

14th July 2022, 09:11 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Francantolin, Right now anything we say will be pure speculation. There is a rule:” If it wasn’t written, it never happened”. Fortunately, there is some written information on the blade that can add a lot to our final verdict. But in any case, I am glad that our positions are getting closer and closer. For example, ” This is a tourist item” (post #3) was changed to “ I am sure that this item was not made for tourists” ( #11) Similarly, the proposed dating “ from its appearance, I tend to think it's late 20th century” (#9) was changed to “ your dagger is made in the middle of the 20th century” (#11) and recently to “… like your knife…somewhere at the turn of the 19th and 20th centuries” (#27). In short, there is hope for a mutually agreed upon dating. It is an unusual blade, we do not have a statistically large enough sample with verified datings to place your example in a reasonably accurate group. This is why personal gut feelings may be very misleading. I am waiting for the translations from my colleagues and hopefully from Kwiatek. They are likely to add a lot. I do not know what they are going to tell us , but I do not think such a simple dagger is going to bear the name of Assadulla: there was no sense to provide a spurious date to jack up its price: it was probably comparable to McDonalds “Happy Meal” :-) I have no dog in this fight, I am just modestly curious. I shall go with anything the translation tells us. Last edited by ariel; 15th July 2022 at 01:21 AM.

13th July 2022, 06:12 PM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Very nice set, including the Caucasian " gazyrs" i.e decorated tubes with premeasured amounts of gunpowder. Although its dating is uncertain ( " circa 1880"), ithe dagger is definitely quite old, well before the 20th century. Both the reinforced tip and the " ricasso" are very prominent. Reinforced tips are seen on Persian and Indian Zirah Bouk khanjar and peshkabz blades. They are very solid and have nothing to do with the puny recent tourist items. The latter are little blobs perched on top of the long and thin distal part of the blade and likely would break off with any contact with metal mail. And I agree with the Afghani origin of the blade: the decorative elements are " perforated", the feature adopted by the Afghanis from either Persia or S. India, (or both) sometimes in the 17-18 centuries and continued thereafter. I still do not have any translations, but will report them as soon as I get them.

13th July 2022, 06:18 PM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Thanks for the enlarged views of the blade of your pesh-kabz. I saw them literally 5 minutes ago. I have a suspicion that it might be wootz. Can you polish and etch it?

15th July 2022, 10:33 PM	#15
Ren Ren Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Russia, Moscow Posts: 365	Three of the participants in those events today are present in this topic. We were twelve years younger, had much less knowledge and much more energy and courage!

16th July 2022, 12:35 AM	#16
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Ren Ren, Thanks for reminding us of the courage and enthusiasm of our youthful years:-))) As far as I remember, the main ( or the only ?) argument in favor of Crimean origin was the crooked hilt, analogous or just reminiscent of the Tatar-Circassian Ordynkas.

16th July 2022, 02:51 AM	#17
Saracen Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Posts: 147	In that discussion, we came to the conclusion that this formerly Persian perforation with a red background is characteristic of later Afghan weapons. Often this perforation is simply filled with red paste on Afghan weapons. Also features of the blade, which are also for Afghanistan. Yes, it's nice to remember).By the way, the scabbard in the message No. 17 is also Afghan. We didn't have a scabbard in that discussion.

16th July 2022, 04:53 AM	#18
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,044	Very productive discussion about these knives. With large numbers of "armor-piercing" tipped knives coming our of Rajahstan, mainly Jaipur, these days, it's good to have some historical perspective for the forerunners of these styles. While I understand many of these knives are being made or assembled in Jaipur for final distribution, it is also my understanding that similar knives are produced in Pakistan. Can you gentlemen inform us of what is happening currently and how to identify the more recently made versions?

17th July 2022, 05:43 AM	#20
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Oh no, not kindergarten "skirmishes" but full blown "special military operations" :-)))) Our arguments were, as Pushkin used to say, " senseless and pitiless". Ren Ren is right: we were just too young and full of piss and vinegar. Saracen, Hope you noticed remnants of some "red stuff" in the pierced areas of the Afghan/Tatar dagger. I just do not want to go through the same heated discussions again. Too old for that.