Ladrang remodelled?

A. G. Maisey · 24th February 2024, 01:44 AM

In respect of other wrongko forms that lack a defined angkup, whether the sans angkup form is original or is the result of remodeling.

1) Attached is the Candi Sukuh form referred to in post #9. The form from which this form is probably derived is quite similar to the form that we now know as Bugis, and can be seen in the Candi Panataran reliefs. See images.

2) Central Javanese ladrang forms that do have a defined angkup but that have lost this angkup are never original creations, a Central Javanese ladrangan without angkup is always the result of an alteration, the loss of the angkup makes the keris unsuited for formal wear & for court wear, in some non-formal settings, such as wear in a village non-formal situation it could be acceptable, often this loss of angkup has been done by a dealer in preparation for sale, if for sale to a local, in the expectation that the local buyer will redress to suit his own needs & taste, if for sale to a cultural outsider, because the cultural outsider will not not know the difference in any case.

3) The Balinese wrongko form that does have a very slight "angkup" is the Sesrengatan form, it is the direct Balinese equivalent of the Javanese ladrangan form, it is used for formal & official occasions, & the same restrictions on use for a damaged and/or modified wrongko apply in Bali as for in Jawa.

See here:-

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=26082

4) For North Coast variations both original & modified from other forms, see here:-

https://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13435

Pendita65 · 24th February 2024, 07:48 AM

Mr. Maisey,

thank you for the thorough explanation, and yes with my western view i did not think of all the rules in according the wear and use of the Keris in daily life in Java.
I have to find then a suitable dress for the Keris that i have where the Angkup was lost. Did you ever had a new sarong made for a Keris in Java? And is it allowed to bring a Keris blade to Indonesia for having made a new dress for it?

best wishes, Martin

Sajen · 24th February 2024, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pendita65

.
I have to find then a suitable dress for the Keris that i have where the Angkup was lost. Did you ever had a new sarong made for a Keris in Java? And is it allowed to bring a Keris blade to Indonesia for having made a new dress for it?

Hi Martin,

To bring it inside Indonesia won't be the problem but to bring it out again could become maybe a problem. Post Indonesia doesn't ship any blades out from Indonesia.
On the other hand, a friend brought a sword with me to Germany from Indonesia/Bali.

Regards,
Detlef

Pendita65 · 24th February 2024, 11:36 AM

Hi Detlef,

does that also count when you go to Indonesia, and let a sarong be made to fit an antique blade so you take it with you home?

Sajen · 24th February 2024, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pendita65

Does that also count when you go to Indonesia, and let a sarong be made to fit an antique blade so you take it with you home?

I think that the risk is minimal when you have the keris in your luggage, like I said a friend brought me a sword inside his luggage without any problem when he came to Germany.

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 24th February 2024, 01:15 PM

Detlef, since 1966 I have entered Indonesia through Ngurah Rai airport in Den Pasar, more than 100 times, and I have entered Indonesia through Jakarta perhaps 10 times.

In 2018 I entered Indonesia through Ngurah Rai, I had with me about 20 or 30 keris and other antique edged weapons that I was bringing into Indonesia for restoration.

On my Customs declaration form I declared these keris & other items:- it is required to declare all sharp & or pointed objects, in certain circumstances this declaration can be interpreted as a requirement to declare such things as scissors or pocket knives, even the mini Swiss army knife that is about 2" long.

You must declare, if you do not, your undeclared item can be seized even though it is perfectly legal to own & carry in Indonesia.

OK. In 2018 I declared what I was carrying. I am 80+ years old, I dress as a businessman who is about to attend an important meeting, I speak Bahasa Indonesia fluently and I understand the correct way to behave.

The Customs officers who handled my declaration took me & my luggage into a private office and conducted a cross examination that lasted for around 2 hours. Central to the examination was the fact that I did not have Indonesian/Balinese police clearance to bring weapons into Bali.

However, I did have a NSW police document that permitted me bring edged weapons back into Australia, permitted the Customs officers to look at this document, but I did not permit them to handle it or copy it.

Eventually I was permitted to leave the airport and enter Indonesia.

I have also exited Indonesia on many occasions, sometimes carrying very large numbers of keris & other weapons. On most occasions I have not encountered anything but a cursory examination of what I have had with me, but sometimes the examination has been quite probing in respect of age and/or cultural importance of one or another item carried, on these occasions I have handled the matter in the traditional Indonesian manner.

On two occasions I have been detained & handed over to a highly ranked duty officer who has started our interview by insisting that I return to Jakarta and obtain the relevant export clearance documents. Again, these meetings have been settled in the traditional manner.

Indonesian Customs & other officials must not ever be taken lightly, to do so is to risk making your visit to Indonesia very much longer than you intended it to be, and/or very much more expensive.

Gustav · 25th February 2024, 06:07 PM

These posts will be my response to points made in post #18.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

1) Attached is the Candi Sukuh form referred to in post #9. The form from which this form is probably derived is quite similar to the form that we now know as Bugis, and can be seen in the Candi Panataran reliefs. See images.

The sheath from Candi Panataran relief is very close, one can say, of the same type, as the sheath of Pagarruyung Keris. I will leave it to viewer's imagination how much exactly this sheath resembles "the form that we now know as Bugis".

I fail to see the close relationship between the sheath forms from Candi Panataran and Candi Sukuh. Candi Sukuh can be interpreted either as Sandhang Walikat or as a Ladrangan, both readings endorsed by A. G. Maisey in these pages at different times. I would interprete the curved back part in Candi Sukuh carving as Godhong, part of Ladrangan sheath, because this Wrongko has carvings known as Widheng Kasatriyan, and I have yet to see a Sandhang Walikat with W K.

I cannot recognize a trace of Angkup in this carving.

Gustav · 25th February 2024, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

2) Central Javanese ladrang forms that do have a defined angkup but that have lost this angkup are never original creations, a Central Javanese ladrangan without angkup is always the result of an alteration, the loss of the angkup makes the keris unsuited for formal wear & for court wear, in some non-formal settings, such as wear in a village non-formal situation it could be acceptable, often this loss of angkup has been done by a dealer in preparation for sale, if for sale to a local, in the expectation that the local buyer will redress to suit his own needs & taste, if for sale to a cultural outsider, because the cultural outsider will not not know the difference in any case.

There is a Keris from Yogyakarta, presented by Raffles to George IV when Prince Regent in 1813. There are descriptions, which add, it was taken in the loothing of Kraton a year earlier. I was able to see this Keris, and I couldn't see any traces of alterations to the sheath. Everybody acquainted with the shape of a Ladrangan from Yogyakarta - Branggah - will see, that this physically cannot be an alteration of a lost Angkup - because the "lip" of the sheath goes too moch forward for an Yogyakarta style Angkup.

Attached another high quality conventional Branggah image, taken from the same angle.

Gustav · 25th February 2024, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

3) The Balinese wrongko form that does have a very slight "angkup" is the Sesrengatan form, it is the direct Balinese equivalent of the Javanese ladrangan form, it is used for formal & official occasions, & the same restrictions on use for a damaged and/or modified wrongko apply in Bali as for in Jawa.

See here:-

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=26082

I didn't mean the Sesrengatan form, I mean this one, which is rare, but can be found from Eastern Java till Lombok.

Gustav · 25th February 2024, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

4) For North Coast variations both original & modified from other forms, see here:-

https://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13435

The way how this Pasisir sheath is carved leads me to think, that its front part could be original - the edges, or the "lip" are pointing downwards, at the same time have too much volume at the needed place for a standard Ladrangan with Angkup. Nevertheless, this one could be the only one sheath from all examples I presented (and have seen in person), where I would consider a complete recarving some longer time ago, because patina on all parts of Atasan is genuine.

A. G. Maisey · 25th February 2024, 08:02 PM

Nice photos Gustav.

I will comment on these as soon as I have time, at the moment I'm only a couple of days back from Bali & my inbox is over-flowing with money producing work, so when that is turned into folding stuff I'll post a comment or three.

However, I do have one question, you mention the "Pagaruyung keris", I do not know this keris, do you have a photo?

Pagaruyung is in Sumatera, it is a Minangkabau location.

Gustav · 25th February 2024, 08:31 PM

Alan, it is the Keris depicted together with its sheath and the well known dagger. Both were the heirlooms held in Pagarruyung (and still are?).

A. G. Maisey · 25th February 2024, 09:50 PM

Thanks Gustav, I can see what you mean now, yes, there are similarities between the "Pagaruyung Keris" and the Candi Panataran carving, and there is very little similarity between the Pagaruyung example & the Bugis form.

I will remark that many people who have seen the Candi Panataran example have formed the same opinion as have I about this scabbard, that is, that the Candi Panataran example bears a high degree of similarity to the Bugis scabbard form. Many of these people have formed that opinion without any knowledge of my photographs.

You might see this matter differently, & I have no problem with this.

Gustav · 26th February 2024, 11:48 AM

Alan, it doesn't wonder me at all, that people have formed an opinion about the similarity of Panataran carving to a Buginese sheath. Your picture was the first one where I clearly could discern the shape of Gandar, which is identical to Pagarruyung sheath. We also probably all have experienced the fact, that sometimes some details are much more easily noticed in a photograph then in real life.

What, I think, till now escapes many people, besides the Gandar shape, is the fact, that the front side of sheath in profile forms a straight line, like the sheath of Pagarruyung Keris.

Knowing Pagarruyung Keris and its sheath we even can tell, that a Jalak Budho or Bethok blade with Gandhik, not protruding outside the blade profile, will have a corresponding sheath with no protrusion where Gandhik is placed. (As we know, sheath is sometimes mimicking the details of the blade it houses, like Kruwingan.)The Keris from Panataran carving also seems to not have a protruding Gandhik.

The sheath from likely later Candi Sukuh carving shows a protruding front part, and that allows us to speculate, that Keris inside it also already would have a protruding Gandhik part.

A. G. Maisey · 26th February 2024, 11:49 AM

At the core of my comments in Post 18 is this statement:-

"Central Javanese ladrang forms that do have a defined angkup but that have lost this angkup are never original creations, a Central Javanese ladrangan without angkup is always the result of an alteration, the loss of the angkup makes the keris unsuited for formal wear & for court wear --- "

once this is understood everything else that we have wandered over might be considered to be somewhat superfluous.

However, we're here to exchange ideas, so here are a few more:-

Post 24 --- I have already commented upon one element of this post, but there is something else that I should mention.

The wrongko in the relief carving at Candi Sukuh, that I have shown in my Post #18 & that appears again but reversed in Post 24, does not have a widheng, what looks vaguely like a spiral in the photo is in fact the natural grain of weathered 15th century rock.

In respect of exactly what classification can be applied to the Candi Sukuh wrongko. Yes, it does have some characteristics of a modern ladrangan, and of a modern sandang walikat, and also of a modern jamprahan & certainly of some bancihan forms. However, we do not have even the vaguest idea of what the name was for this form in the 15th century. For a long time I was inclined to think of it as a ladrangan form, not so much because of the wrongko itself, but rather because of the scene in which it appears.

At the present time I would be inclined to accept what anybody, with some understanding of the relative fields, thought that they could see. My own opinions are rarely set in stone, they change continually, and depend upon what I have learnt.

Post 25 --- The Wrongko shown in Post 25 is a Jogja Bancihan form, it is not one of the six Jogja formal Ladrangan forms recognised for official wear. The word "bancihan" comes from the root "banci", which in Javanese means an effeminate man, ie, a man who is neither fully male but also not female. At the present time some people regard the bancihan wrongko forms as having a stigma attached to them, perhaps this is unreasonable, because by likening this wrongko form to an effeminate man, the implied understanding is that it is neither one thing nor the other, it is sort of stuck in the middle with nowhere to go.

Post 26 --- The wrongko shown in Post 26 is the Balinese Jamprahan form, in past times the Jamprahan wrongko form was worn by religious leaders. This defined use accounts for its comparative rarity. This wrongko form is not the equivalent of a Javanese ladrangan form.

Post 27 --- The wrongko shown in this post appears to be a North Javanese variation, not a Central Javanese form, it could be original, it could be an alteration. I have no idea what it might have been classified as in its place & time of origin, but in Central Jawa it would be called "bancihan".

A. G. Maisey · 26th February 2024, 12:01 PM

Re Post #31.

I have seen other keris with that little bit of floral carving at the end of the gandar, I've forgotten where they were from, I think probably Madura. They were old, not recent copies.

As for relating blade shape to wrongko shape, I've never given this any thought, its just not the sort of thing that interests me. But having said that, yes, you could well be right.

25th February 2024, 09:50 PM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,752	Thanks Gustav, I can see what you mean now, yes, there are similarities between the "Pagaruyung Keris" and the Candi Panataran carving, and there is very little similarity between the Pagaruyung example & the Bugis form. I will remark that many people who have seen the Candi Panataran example have formed the same opinion as have I about this scabbard, that is, that the Candi Panataran example bears a high degree of similarity to the Bugis scabbard form. Many of these people have formed that opinion without any knowledge of my photographs. You might see this matter differently, & I have no problem with this. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 26th February 2024 at 11:36 AM. Reason: correction

26th February 2024, 11:48 AM	#14
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,208	Alan, it doesn't wonder me at all, that people have formed an opinion about the similarity of Panataran carving to a Buginese sheath. Your picture was the first one where I clearly could discern the shape of Gandar, which is identical to Pagarruyung sheath. We also probably all have experienced the fact, that sometimes some details are much more easily noticed in a photograph then in real life. What, I think, till now escapes many people, besides the Gandar shape, is the fact, that the front side of sheath in profile forms a straight line, like the sheath of Pagarruyung Keris. Knowing Pagarruyung Keris and its sheath we even can tell, that a Jalak Budho or Bethok blade with Gandhik, not protruding outside the blade profile, will have a corresponding sheath with no protrusion where Gandhik is placed. (As we know, sheath is sometimes mimicking the details of the blade it houses, like Kruwingan.)The Keris from Panataran carving also seems to not have a protruding Gandhik. The sheath from likely later Candi Sukuh carving shows a protruding front part, and that allows us to speculate, that Keris inside it also already would have a protruding Gandhik part. Attached Images

26th February 2024, 11:49 AM	#15
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,752	At the core of my comments in Post 18 is this statement:- "Central Javanese ladrang forms that do have a defined angkup but that have lost this angkup are never original creations, a Central Javanese ladrangan without angkup is always the result of an alteration, the loss of the angkup makes the keris unsuited for formal wear & for court wear --- " once this is understood everything else that we have wandered over might be considered to be somewhat superfluous. However, we're here to exchange ideas, so here are a few more:- Post 24 --- I have already commented upon one element of this post, but there is something else that I should mention. The wrongko in the relief carving at Candi Sukuh, that I have shown in my Post #18 & that appears again but reversed in Post 24, does not have a widheng, what looks vaguely like a spiral in the photo is in fact the natural grain of weathered 15th century rock. In respect of exactly what classification can be applied to the Candi Sukuh wrongko. Yes, it does have some characteristics of a modern ladrangan, and of a modern sandang walikat, and also of a modern jamprahan & certainly of some bancihan forms. However, we do not have even the vaguest idea of what the name was for this form in the 15th century. For a long time I was inclined to think of it as a ladrangan form, not so much because of the wrongko itself, but rather because of the scene in which it appears. At the present time I would be inclined to accept what anybody, with some understanding of the relative fields, thought that they could see. My own opinions are rarely set in stone, they change continually, and depend upon what I have learnt. Post 25 --- The Wrongko shown in Post 25 is a Jogja Bancihan form, it is not one of the six Jogja formal Ladrangan forms recognised for official wear. The word "bancihan" comes from the root "banci", which in Javanese means an effeminate man, ie, a man who is neither fully male but also not female. At the present time some people regard the bancihan wrongko forms as having a stigma attached to them, perhaps this is unreasonable, because by likening this wrongko form to an effeminate man, the implied understanding is that it is neither one thing nor the other, it is sort of stuck in the middle with nowhere to go. Post 26 --- The wrongko shown in Post 26 is the Balinese Jamprahan form, in past times the Jamprahan wrongko form was worn by religious leaders. This defined use accounts for its comparative rarity. This wrongko form is not the equivalent of a Javanese ladrangan form. Post 27 --- The wrongko shown in this post appears to be a North Javanese variation, not a Central Javanese form, it could be original, it could be an alteration. I have no idea what it might have been classified as in its place & time of origin, but in Central Jawa it would be called "bancihan". Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 26th February 2024 at 12:02 PM.

24th February 2024, 01:44 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,752	In respect of other wrongko forms that lack a defined angkup, whether the sans angkup form is original or is the result of remodeling. 1) Attached is the Candi Sukuh form referred to in post #9. The form from which this form is probably derived is quite similar to the form that we now know as Bugis, and can be seen in the Candi Panataran reliefs. See images. 2) Central Javanese ladrang forms that do have a defined angkup but that have lost this angkup are never original creations, a Central Javanese ladrangan without angkup is always the result of an alteration, the loss of the angkup makes the keris unsuited for formal wear & for court wear, in some non-formal settings, such as wear in a village non-formal situation it could be acceptable, often this loss of angkup has been done by a dealer in preparation for sale, if for sale to a local, in the expectation that the local buyer will redress to suit his own needs & taste, if for sale to a cultural outsider, because the cultural outsider will not not know the difference in any case. 3) The Balinese wrongko form that does have a very slight "angkup" is the Sesrengatan form, it is the direct Balinese equivalent of the Javanese ladrangan form, it is used for formal & official occasions, & the same restrictions on use for a damaged and/or modified wrongko apply in Bali as for in Jawa. See here:- http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=26082 4) For North Coast variations both original & modified from other forms, see here:- https://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13435 Attached Images

24th February 2024, 07:48 AM	#2
Pendita65 Member Join Date: Feb 2023 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 73	Mr. Maisey, thank you for the thorough explanation, and yes with my western view i did not think of all the rules in according the wear and use of the Keris in daily life in Java. I have to find then a suitable dress for the Keris that i have where the Angkup was lost. Did you ever had a new sarong made for a Keris in Java? And is it allowed to bring a Keris blade to Indonesia for having made a new dress for it? best wishes, Martin

24th February 2024, 11:36 AM	#4
Pendita65 Member Join Date: Feb 2023 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 73	Hi Detlef, does that also count when you go to Indonesia, and let a sarong be made to fit an antique blade so you take it with you home?

24th February 2024, 01:15 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,752	Detlef, since 1966 I have entered Indonesia through Ngurah Rai airport in Den Pasar, more than 100 times, and I have entered Indonesia through Jakarta perhaps 10 times. In 2018 I entered Indonesia through Ngurah Rai, I had with me about 20 or 30 keris and other antique edged weapons that I was bringing into Indonesia for restoration. On my Customs declaration form I declared these keris & other items:- it is required to declare all sharp & or pointed objects, in certain circumstances this declaration can be interpreted as a requirement to declare such things as scissors or pocket knives, even the mini Swiss army knife that is about 2" long. You must declare, if you do not, your undeclared item can be seized even though it is perfectly legal to own & carry in Indonesia. OK. In 2018 I declared what I was carrying. I am 80+ years old, I dress as a businessman who is about to attend an important meeting, I speak Bahasa Indonesia fluently and I understand the correct way to behave. The Customs officers who handled my declaration took me & my luggage into a private office and conducted a cross examination that lasted for around 2 hours. Central to the examination was the fact that I did not have Indonesian/Balinese police clearance to bring weapons into Bali. However, I did have a NSW police document that permitted me bring edged weapons back into Australia, permitted the Customs officers to look at this document, but I did not permit them to handle it or copy it. Eventually I was permitted to leave the airport and enter Indonesia. I have also exited Indonesia on many occasions, sometimes carrying very large numbers of keris & other weapons. On most occasions I have not encountered anything but a cursory examination of what I have had with me, but sometimes the examination has been quite probing in respect of age and/or cultural importance of one or another item carried, on these occasions I have handled the matter in the traditional Indonesian manner. On two occasions I have been detained & handed over to a highly ranked duty officer who has started our interview by insisting that I return to Jakarta and obtain the relevant export clearance documents. Again, these meetings have been settled in the traditional manner. Indonesian Customs & other officials must not ever be taken lightly, to do so is to risk making your visit to Indonesia very much longer than you intended it to be, and/or very much more expensive.

25th February 2024, 08:02 PM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,752	Nice photos Gustav. I will comment on these as soon as I have time, at the moment I'm only a couple of days back from Bali & my inbox is over-flowing with money producing work, so when that is turned into folding stuff I'll post a comment or three. However, I do have one question, you mention the "Pagaruyung keris", I do not know this keris, do you have a photo? Pagaruyung is in Sumatera, it is a Minangkabau location.

25th February 2024, 08:31 PM	#12
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,208	Alan, it is the Keris depicted together with its sheath and the well known dagger. Both were the heirlooms held in Pagarruyung (and still are?).

26th February 2024, 12:01 PM	#16
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,752	Re Post #31. I have seen other keris with that little bit of floral carving at the end of the gandar, I've forgotten where they were from, I think probably Madura. They were old, not recent copies. As for relating blade shape to wrongko shape, I've never given this any thought, its just not the sort of thing that interests me. But having said that, yes, you could well be right.