Tilang Kamerau

Mytribalworld · 20th October 2015, 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Wilkinson was not working from current usage, but from literary sources and scholarly input. His dictionary is relevant to Classical Malay, rather than Market Malay. Of course many words are used in both forms of the language, but Wilkinson is still the dictionary text for studies of Classical Malay. He drew on sources that in fact pre-dated the 1847 word list.

More than a few of these word lists seem to have been produced, the ones I've seen have been mostly Javanese, but quality and accuracy of many of them does sometimes raise some questions.

Both "helder" and "fraai" appear to have multiple meanings, dependent upon context, I have no understanding of Dutch at all, but I've had a look at a couple of dictionaries, and this seems to be the case. The usage of "fine" (fraai) appears to refer to a measure of quality, rather than in the context of weather. To my mind, this makes the word list translation even more worthy of question.

It did not occur to me previously, but "tilang" also appears in Classical Malay, not as "tilang", but as "tilan" = "a small river fish like an eel"

As text is describing a sword it is somewhat more plausible that "tilang" stands for "Ilang" the common dayak word for his sword.

A. G. Maisey · 20th October 2015, 07:07 AM

Yes, I agree, I did consider raising the possibility of "ilang", but I do not know of a pronunciation of 'ilang' that uses a 'T' sound in front of the ilang, whereas an 'n' at the end of a word is sometimes given a 'g' sound, this is particularly common in Old Javanese, it is not exactly represented as a 'g', but when the Old Javanese word has come into Modern Javanese, the OJ "N" sometimes gains a MJ "G". I thought a similar thing might have applied with Malay.

But having said that I do not know of such a pronunciation, doesn't mean very much in this context, because my knowledge is pretty much limited to Jawa/Bali/Madura. Pronunciations of all words in these languages can and do vary all over the place, even today, people will vary a pronunciation simply to make the words sound better. In Jawa, people consider that they own the words that they use, and provided the other party understands, or appears to understand what is being said, they are not too particular with precise pronunciations. A similar attitude could apply in other areas also.

If there is only the one mention 'tilang' in old sources, it is possible that the original information was misunderstood, possibly because of imperfect knowledge of Malay on the part of the original information gatherer, or perhaps because of the sentence structure that the information was given in.

On the other hand, the fish concerned could, with a stretch of the imagination, vaguely resemble the particular weapon under discussion:- Macrognathus maculatus.

Royston · 20th October 2015, 06:41 PM

Arjan, I had not realised that Banks was quoting Schelford. How accurate was he ? As Alan says, did he hear it wrong or misunderstand what he heard ? One reference is not much to go on is it ?
Roy

Mytribalworld · 21st October 2015, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Royston

Arjan, I had not realised that Banks was quoting Schelford. How accurate was he ? As Alan says, did he hear it wrong or misunderstand what he heard ? One reference is not much to go on is it ?
Roy

Hi Roy,

both articles are certainly worth to read and contain worth full information but good information was sometimes scarves and so the writer(s) had to relay on one single source. Than you can easily makes mistakes.
Schelford was writing in 1901 while Banks wrote his article about 30 years later and between the lines in the Banks article you can see that. Some information isn't correct but otherwise the subject of the blade shapes ( usong) is very useful. Heppel reviewed these articles quite recent and also that article give some good info but also Heppell on his turn isn't perfect and there are also some mistakes in it. But all with all respect for all 3.

About mistakes, I'will try to add the pictures of the TK. And then we see that or the description is wrong, or the tag is wrong or.........

Mytribalworld · 21st October 2015, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mytribalworld

Hi Roy,

both articles are certainly worth to read and contain worth full information but good information was sometimes scarves and so the writer(s) had to relay on one single source. Than you can easily makes mistakes.
Schelford was writing in 1901 while Banks wrote his article about 30 years later and between the lines in the Banks article you can see that. Some information isn't correct but otherwise the subject of the blade shapes ( usong) is very useful. Heppel reviewed these articles quite recent and also that article give some good info but also Heppell on his turn isn't perfect and there are also some mistakes in it. But all with all respect for all 3.

About mistakes, I'will try to add the pictures of the TK. And then we see that or the description is wrong, or the tag is wrong or.........

TILANG KAMARAN !

A. G. Maisey · 21st October 2015, 10:14 PM

Interesting.

So we are talking about the scabbard, not talking about the sword, and the name of the scabbard is tilang kamaran.

Kamaran comes from the root "kamar", now commonly understood as "a room".

In Classical Malay there are several meanings for "kamar":- a room, a cabin, an upstairs room; a scarf, a girdle; the moon.

These were taken straight from Wilkinson, the common usage that we all know is "a room", the other usages I've never heard of, but it is Wilkinson, so it is correct. I think "kamar" comes from the Dutch "kamer" = "a room".

The suffix "an" could have been used to indicate something associated with a room, but not a room. For example, "bangun" is to "wake up, to get up", but "bangunan" is a building: something that has been raised up.

I believe we can now forget all about dry seasons.

In respect of "tilan/tilang". The tilan fish has a habit of hiding itself in river weeds and mud.

Based on this new information I'd put my money on "tilang kamaran" being a humorous reference to a place where the tilang hides. The word tilang also being a humorous reference to the sword.

I do not know Dyaks, but it would surprise me greatly if they did not have a sense of humour at least as well developed, probably more so, than any other people.

Mytribalworld · 21st October 2015, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Interesting.

So we are talking about the scabbard, not talking about the sword, and the name of the scabbard is tilang kamaran.

Kamaran comes from the root "kamar", now commonly understood as "a room".

In Classical Malay there are several meanings for "kamar":- a room, a cabin, an upstairs room; a scarf, a girdle; the moon.

These were taken straight from Wilkinson, the common usage that we all know is "a room", the other usages I've never heard of, but it is Wilkinson, so it is correct. I think "kamar" comes from the Dutch "kamer" = "a room".

The suffix "an" could have been used to indicate something associated with a room, but not a room. For example, "bangun" is to "wake up, to get up", but "bangunan" is a building: something that has been raised up.

I believe we can now forget all about dry seasons.

In respect of "tilan/tilang". The tilan fish has a habit of hiding itself in river weeds and mud.

Based on this new information I'd put my money on "tilang kamaran" being a humorous reference to a place where the tilang hides. The word tilang also being a humorous reference to the sword.

I do not know Dyaks, but it would surprise me greatly if they did not have a sense of humour at least as well developed, probably more so, than any other people.

Njet the word for the whole sword is Tilang kamaran or Tilang Kamarau ( in case the curator mistyped)
I wonder if people who lived so close to nature should name a sword for warfare after a fish that hides himself in the mud it does;t sound so heroic .....

"Ilang" in stead of Tilang and " Kemari(n) " in stead of ' Kemarau or Kemaran" makes " Sword of yesterday " in other words "Sword of the past"
In case it is really "kemarau"( the dry version) than I could imagine that the owner means that nothing ever happend with the sword " the sword is still dry" there's no blood on it" But I confess that's also a little fantasy , but actually is doesn't matter so much.

Its actually more important that the type as seen on the picture has a name as that we figure out what that name it really means. Just name it TK and you're save

kind regards,

Arjan

Ian · 21st October 2015, 11:43 PM

If there is a Dutch component to kamar, I think we can trace the Dutch word back to Latin. The Latin word for a private room or chamber is camera. This is still heard today in English when legal matters are said to be conducted in camera, or in a private room free from public scrutiny.

Ian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Interesting.

So we are talking about the scabbard, not talking about the sword, and the name of the scabbard is tilang kamaran.

Kamaran comes from the root "kamar", now commonly understood as "a room".

In Classical Malay there are several meanings for "kamar":- a room, a cabin, an upstairs room; a scarf, a girdle; the moon.

These were taken straight from Wilkinson, the common usage that we all know is "a room", the other usages I've never heard of, but it is Wilkinson, so it is correct. I think "kamar" comes from the Dutch "kamer" = "a room".

The suffix "an" could have been used to indicate something associated with a room, but not a room. For example, "bangun" is to "wake up, to get up", but "bangunan" is a building: something that has been raised up.

I believe we can now forget all about dry seasons.

In respect of "tilan/tilang". The tilan fish has a habit of hiding itself in river weeds and mud.

Based on this new information I'd put my money on "tilang kamaran" being a humorous reference to a place where the tilang hides. The word tilang also being a humorous reference to the sword.

I do not know Dyaks, but it would surprise me greatly if they did not have a sense of humour at least as well developed, probably more so, than any other people.

20th October 2015, 07:07 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,736	Yes, I agree, I did consider raising the possibility of "ilang", but I do not know of a pronunciation of 'ilang' that uses a 'T' sound in front of the ilang, whereas an 'n' at the end of a word is sometimes given a 'g' sound, this is particularly common in Old Javanese, it is not exactly represented as a 'g', but when the Old Javanese word has come into Modern Javanese, the OJ "N" sometimes gains a MJ "G". I thought a similar thing might have applied with Malay. But having said that I do not know of such a pronunciation, doesn't mean very much in this context, because my knowledge is pretty much limited to Jawa/Bali/Madura. Pronunciations of all words in these languages can and do vary all over the place, even today, people will vary a pronunciation simply to make the words sound better. In Jawa, people consider that they own the words that they use, and provided the other party understands, or appears to understand what is being said, they are not too particular with precise pronunciations. A similar attitude could apply in other areas also. If there is only the one mention 'tilang' in old sources, it is possible that the original information was misunderstood, possibly because of imperfect knowledge of Malay on the part of the original information gatherer, or perhaps because of the sentence structure that the information was given in. On the other hand, the fish concerned could, with a stretch of the imagination, vaguely resemble the particular weapon under discussion:- Macrognathus maculatus.

20th October 2015, 06:41 PM	#3
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 441	Arjan, I had not realised that Banks was quoting Schelford. How accurate was he ? As Alan says, did he hear it wrong or misunderstand what he heard ? One reference is not much to go on is it ? Roy

21st October 2015, 10:14 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,736	Interesting. So we are talking about the scabbard, not talking about the sword, and the name of the scabbard is tilang kamaran. Kamaran comes from the root "kamar", now commonly understood as "a room". In Classical Malay there are several meanings for "kamar":- a room, a cabin, an upstairs room; a scarf, a girdle; the moon. These were taken straight from Wilkinson, the common usage that we all know is "a room", the other usages I've never heard of, but it is Wilkinson, so it is correct. I think "kamar" comes from the Dutch "kamer" = "a room". The suffix "an" could have been used to indicate something associated with a room, but not a room. For example, "bangun" is to "wake up, to get up", but "bangunan" is a building: something that has been raised up. I believe we can now forget all about dry seasons. In respect of "tilan/tilang". The tilan fish has a habit of hiding itself in river weeds and mud. Based on this new information I'd put my money on "tilang kamaran" being a humorous reference to a place where the tilang hides. The word tilang also being a humorous reference to the sword. I do not know Dyaks, but it would surprise me greatly if they did not have a sense of humour at least as well developed, probably more so, than any other people.