Black stain spreading on keris during vinegar cleaning

apolaki · 12th March 2020, 02:10 AM

How do you indicate that this is pamor sanak? I see the word mentioned several times. From when I cleaned the blade, I could not find any distinct contrasting patterns in the blade.

A. G. Maisey · 12th March 2020, 03:10 AM

"sanak" means "related", a relative, or a relation.

"Pamor Sanak" is "related pamor"

Related to what?

The rest of the blade, in other words the pamor is ferric material, usually of various types, blended together. It is not usual for pamor made exclusively of ferric material to provide contrast, but if white iron (high phosphorus iron) is used you will get a low key contrast.

jagabuwana · 12th March 2020, 05:43 AM

If a blade does not have an obvious pamor (e.g. using ferric and non-ferric materials such that obvious contrasts in the damascene pattern can be seen), how often is it the case that it can be called "pamor sanak"?

Would this be almost the same as asking this question:

Were keris or other tosan aji from what is now Indonesia ever made using a single material, such that there can be no pamor to speak of?

A. G. Maisey · 12th March 2020, 08:27 AM

We usually classify something as pamor sanak if we can see the weld lines but there is no contrast, in other words, the outside layers have been made by welding together an assortment of various irons.

Yes, there are blades from various places that give the appearance of having been made from only the one type of material.

During the 1980's in Solo the elite of ahli keris that I came in contact with seemed to hold the opinion that in Sultan Agung's time, and also before and after, keris that were made specifically as weapons were made without contrasting pamor, whilst keris that were made with pamor and/or naga and other carved motifs were made for talismanic or social reasons.

Mickey the Finn · 16th March 2020, 02:27 AM

For what little it may be worth, I've done a few rust removal experiments on planer blades (from lumber mills), neglected and abused Mora knives of laminated steel construction, "load binders", and hard-to-come-by threaded fasteners using either undiluted acetic acid from Canadian or Filipino producers, undiluted Peruvian lemon juice, or an ad hoc mixture of both. For blades, I'll wrap in paper towel, apply liquid to saturate, then wrap in common, food grade plastic wrap or a similar shipping grade product. The result after unwrapping 12-96 hours later is always a strong odour which I'd describe as mouth-watering in a Limburger cheese sort of way. Provided that care has been taken to remove all oil and/or grease from the steel treated in such a way, in most cases, the rust will have disappeared, and the steel will be quite black, and vigorous rubbing with nothing more abrasive than a paper towel or a stick of (soft, not hard) softwood is needed to remove this blackening completely. Faster results might possibly be achieved using a toothbrush, perhaps in combination with toothpaste. This last mentioned method works on silver plate and coinage (though I'd discourage it), but I've never tried it on steel.
I've read of a method used at one time in Japan to cause a durable layer of glossy, black protective oxide to form on chisels and axe heads by first soaking in a solution of water and kosher salt until fully coated in rust, and then boiling the rusty tool in hydrogen peroxide to bring about the conversion of the rust to the protective black oxide. I've yet to try this method, but have considered it for "gardening-variety" machete, parang and golok, and as a possible alternative to traditional warangan treatment for keris due to arsenic being unavailable where I'm living. If anyone has any knowledge of this method, any input would be appreciated.

16th March 2020, 02:27 AM	#5
Mickey the Finn Member Join Date: Dec 2017 Posts: 90	Re: Vinegar, C6H8O7, NaCl and H2O2. For what little it may be worth, I've done a few rust removal experiments on planer blades (from lumber mills), neglected and abused Mora knives of laminated steel construction, "load binders", and hard-to-come-by threaded fasteners using either undiluted acetic acid from Canadian or Filipino producers, undiluted Peruvian lemon juice, or an ad hoc mixture of both. For blades, I'll wrap in paper towel, apply liquid to saturate, then wrap in common, food grade plastic wrap or a similar shipping grade product. The result after unwrapping 12-96 hours later is always a strong odour which I'd describe as mouth-watering in a Limburger cheese sort of way. Provided that care has been taken to remove all oil and/or grease from the steel treated in such a way, in most cases, the rust will have disappeared, and the steel will be quite black, and vigorous rubbing with nothing more abrasive than a paper towel or a stick of (soft, not hard) softwood is needed to remove this blackening completely. Faster results might possibly be achieved using a toothbrush, perhaps in combination with toothpaste. This last mentioned method works on silver plate and coinage (though I'd discourage it), but I've never tried it on steel. I've read of a method used at one time in Japan to cause a durable layer of glossy, black protective oxide to form on chisels and axe heads by first soaking in a solution of water and kosher salt until fully coated in rust, and then boiling the rusty tool in hydrogen peroxide to bring about the conversion of the rust to the protective black oxide. I've yet to try this method, but have considered it for "gardening-variety" machete, parang and golok, and as a possible alternative to traditional warangan treatment for keris due to arsenic being unavailable where I'm living. If anyone has any knowledge of this method, any input would be appreciated.

12th March 2020, 02:10 AM	#1
apolaki Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 160	How do you indicate that this is pamor sanak? I see the word mentioned several times. From when I cleaned the blade, I could not find any distinct contrasting patterns in the blade.

12th March 2020, 03:10 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,736	"sanak" means "related", a relative, or a relation. "Pamor Sanak" is "related pamor" Related to what? The rest of the blade, in other words the pamor is ferric material, usually of various types, blended together. It is not usual for pamor made exclusively of ferric material to provide contrast, but if white iron (high phosphorus iron) is used you will get a low key contrast.

12th March 2020, 05:43 AM	#3
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 277	If a blade does not have an obvious pamor (e.g. using ferric and non-ferric materials such that obvious contrasts in the damascene pattern can be seen), how often is it the case that it can be called "pamor sanak"? Would this be almost the same as asking this question: Were keris or other tosan aji from what is now Indonesia ever made using a single material, such that there can be no pamor to speak of?

12th March 2020, 08:27 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,736	We usually classify something as pamor sanak if we can see the weld lines but there is no contrast, in other words, the outside layers have been made by welding together an assortment of various irons. Yes, there are blades from various places that give the appearance of having been made from only the one type of material. During the 1980's in Solo the elite of ahli keris that I came in contact with seemed to hold the opinion that in Sultan Agung's time, and also before and after, keris that were made specifically as weapons were made without contrasting pamor, whilst keris that were made with pamor and/or naga and other carved motifs were made for talismanic or social reasons.