Cuphilt Sword with Damascus blade?

AHorsa · 24th November 2020, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

but I see no reason why Indian smiths couldn't do it to meet a more specific European demand.

No question, Marius. It is just not an Indian blade from its shape but possibly made in India in the European style

Will M · 24th November 2020, 10:24 PM

I don't believe there is an inscription on the blade. Our brains are made to find shapes and we do see things that are not there. I believe the "O" is just part of the Damascus pattern.
Very interesting blade and I see something (design) at the ricasso

Jim McDougall · 25th November 2020, 01:00 AM

This cuphilt is of European 'style', naturally inferring Spanish or Portuguese, and Germany also used the cuphilt in degree, but these arming type versions are typically colonial and 18th century.

I am unsure that India would be my first thought for pattern welding. India was renowned for its wootz of course, but I am not familiar with Indian blades using pattern welding. Naturally I would be interested in examples showing otherwise.

In India, especially with Portuguese arrival, there was strong interest in European style and of course blades. Indian swords often had European blades mounted, even rapier blades, a type of sword whose use had absolutely no place in Indian swordsmanship.

In the 18th century there was notable use of these cup hilt type arming swords in colonial settings, but not with this type of much earlier European blade form. It is important to note that Toledo by the 18th century had virtually become defunct as a blade making entity, and the reliance was on Solingen. It seems possible that a pattern welded blade may have come from Germany in latter 18th century in a commissioned case as there were instances of testing various blade forms and forging techniques in this time.

thomas hauschild · 25th November 2020, 05:56 AM

The area near the cup seems to be made from a different piece of steel. Maybe reinforced later after the blade was broken near the hilt. I have some blades with reinforced areas like this to get more thickness in that critical area. If a blade will have a constant thickness the area with reduced material to fit the hilt will be most critical to brake. The logical solution will be ..to make it thicker in that area and to prefer a softer piece of steel outside ( like in a 3-layer / sanmai blade) for the repair. If a blade was broken in the past the steel was still an expensive piece of material. So why do not repair it ?. The blade seems to be made out of a raffinated steel, just to refine the steel , not with the intention to create a special pattern. The use of a raffinated, different piece for the reinforcement seems to be done in the past „to that time“.

Just my opinion about the blade, without knowledge about type of sword.

Best Thomas

AHorsa · 25th November 2020, 08:13 AM

Thanks for your thoughts, Gentlemen and the interesting observation, Thomas.

@Will: It is defintely a remain of an inscription. It is hard to see it from the image, but when you turn the blade against light you see that such a pattern appears nowhere else than in the fuller. Also there are other remains in the fuller, which are identical on both sides.
It´s really a pitty that the inscription is cleaned away. Would be so interesting to know it.

What do you think about the pommel (which by the way shows two Mascarons and the small part beneath the rivet seems to be suplemented)? Does it belong to the sword?

ulfberth · 25th November 2020, 10:25 AM

no it does not, the picture from up close shows a lot more , also the gripwire and ring against the pommel are a replacement.
kind regards
Ulfberth

AHorsa · 25th November 2020, 11:24 AM

Thanks for your opinion, Dirk. Of course the grip-wire and rings are "new". For the pommel I wasn´t sure as it is an old period one.

25th November 2020, 08:13 AM	#5
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 363	Thanks for your thoughts, Gentlemen and the interesting observation, Thomas. @Will: It is defintely a remain of an inscription. It is hard to see it from the image, but when you turn the blade against light you see that such a pattern appears nowhere else than in the fuller. Also there are other remains in the fuller, which are identical on both sides. It´s really a pitty that the inscription is cleaned away. Would be so interesting to know it. What do you think about the pommel (which by the way shows two Mascarons and the small part beneath the rivet seems to be suplemented)? Does it belong to the sword? Attached Images Last edited by AHorsa; 25th November 2020 at 08:27 AM.

24th November 2020, 10:24 PM	#2
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 390	I don't believe there is an inscription on the blade. Our brains are made to find shapes and we do see things that are not there. I believe the "O" is just part of the Damascus pattern. Very interesting blade and I see something (design) at the ricasso

25th November 2020, 01:00 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	This cuphilt is of European 'style', naturally inferring Spanish or Portuguese, and Germany also used the cuphilt in degree, but these arming type versions are typically colonial and 18th century. I am unsure that India would be my first thought for pattern welding. India was renowned for its wootz of course, but I am not familiar with Indian blades using pattern welding. Naturally I would be interested in examples showing otherwise. In India, especially with Portuguese arrival, there was strong interest in European style and of course blades. Indian swords often had European blades mounted, even rapier blades, a type of sword whose use had absolutely no place in Indian swordsmanship. In the 18th century there was notable use of these cup hilt type arming swords in colonial settings, but not with this type of much earlier European blade form. It is important to note that Toledo by the 18th century had virtually become defunct as a blade making entity, and the reliance was on Solingen. It seems possible that a pattern welded blade may have come from Germany in latter 18th century in a commissioned case as there were instances of testing various blade forms and forging techniques in this time.

25th November 2020, 05:56 AM	#4
thomas hauschild Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: Germany Posts: 139	The area near the cup seems to be made from a different piece of steel. Maybe reinforced later after the blade was broken near the hilt. I have some blades with reinforced areas like this to get more thickness in that critical area. If a blade will have a constant thickness the area with reduced material to fit the hilt will be most critical to brake. The logical solution will be ..to make it thicker in that area and to prefer a softer piece of steel outside ( like in a 3-layer / sanmai blade) for the repair. If a blade was broken in the past the steel was still an expensive piece of material. So why do not repair it ?. The blade seems to be made out of a raffinated steel, just to refine the steel , not with the intention to create a special pattern. The use of a raffinated, different piece for the reinforcement seems to be done in the past „to that time“. Just my opinion about the blade, without knowledge about type of sword. Best Thomas

25th November 2020, 10:25 AM	#6
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 382	no it does not, the picture from up close shows a lot more , also the gripwire and ring against the pommel are a replacement. kind regards Ulfberth

25th November 2020, 11:24 AM	#7
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 363	Thanks for your opinion, Dirk. Of course the grip-wire and rings are "new". For the pommel I wasn´t sure as it is an old period one.