Keris Kinatah on ´roids - impossible?

Jussi M. · 7th November 2012, 07:09 PM

It seems me not being a native speaker of English got the best of me. Sorry. My fault. Misunderstood your initial reply. I guess I got the answer I was looking for - If gold did not have anything to go for it in comparison to iron/nickel in attributes that are valid from the perspective of keris other than sheer physical attributes in sheer mechanical sense I gather they were not made of it. I just played with the idea as it seems kinatah was used a lot as was gold for parts of the dress alike. But then again if a keris would had been made of gold it probably would not been a keris to beging with. Just a fancy object.

A. G. Maisey · 7th November 2012, 08:21 PM

I read this question of yours yesterday Jussi, and I gave it some thought.

There are a number of ways this question could be considered and a number of ways it could be answered. I feel you've raised a fairly complex subject here and if it is considered in depth, I doubt there is an easy answer.

You've specified the 17th century as the period that applies to your question, and in this period I would not hesitate say that an all gold keris would not be a possibility, however, the answer to each time and place could possibly vary.

The short answer is perhaps more or less as David has stated. Iron is very magical stuff to the pre-industrial mind, and the people who worked iron were wizards. No matter how beautiful and precious gold might be, it could never approach the mystical power of iron.

The symbolism attached to each of these metals is quite different.

Jean · 8th November 2012, 02:08 PM

Just a personal experience for sharing: More than 15 years ago I was visiting a good antique shop in Jakarta (yes, it did exist) and I came accross a Solonese kris with a solid suasa blade which looked original and old but unfortunately I did not buy it upon the recommendation from my wife. It was said to originate from one of the kratons but.... After the years I realize that the blade was may be made from gongso and not suasa.
So kris blades from other metals than steel may well have been used but from gold?
Best regards
Jean

David · 8th November 2012, 03:29 PM

I believe i do recall reading stories about keris made of metals other than iron to be used against specific people who had magically protected themselves against harm from iron objects. I think these keris were supposedly bronze. But it is always difficult to separate truth from legend with such stories. I believe we may have discussed such keris in this forum before.

Gustav · 8th November 2012, 04:26 PM

This is a quite good thread about metals used in keris different than iron:

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002097.html

A. G. Maisey · 8th November 2012, 08:13 PM

Bronze keris are known.

I have seen a photographed a bronze Keris Buda; I've read somewhere --- I had thought Quaritch Wales but I cannot find it in that --- that in Hindu blood sacrifice, bronze was preferred to iron, so this bronze KB was possibly a weapon used for sacrifice.

I also have a Modern Keris --- ie, current keris form --- in bronze.

I've never seen a true keris in any metal other than these two.

7th November 2012, 07:09 PM	#1
Jussi M. Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 235	It seems me not being a native speaker of English got the best of me. Sorry. My fault. Misunderstood your initial reply. I guess I got the answer I was looking for - If gold did not have anything to go for it in comparison to iron/nickel in attributes that are valid from the perspective of keris other than sheer physical attributes in sheer mechanical sense I gather they were not made of it. I just played with the idea as it seems kinatah was used a lot as was gold for parts of the dress alike. But then again if a keris would had been made of gold it probably would not been a keris to beging with. Just a fancy object.

7th November 2012, 08:21 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,736	I read this question of yours yesterday Jussi, and I gave it some thought. There are a number of ways this question could be considered and a number of ways it could be answered. I feel you've raised a fairly complex subject here and if it is considered in depth, I doubt there is an easy answer. You've specified the 17th century as the period that applies to your question, and in this period I would not hesitate say that an all gold keris would not be a possibility, however, the answer to each time and place could possibly vary. The short answer is perhaps more or less as David has stated. Iron is very magical stuff to the pre-industrial mind, and the people who worked iron were wizards. No matter how beautiful and precious gold might be, it could never approach the mystical power of iron. The symbolism attached to each of these metals is quite different.

8th November 2012, 02:08 PM	#3
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Just a personal experience for sharing: More than 15 years ago I was visiting a good antique shop in Jakarta (yes, it did exist) and I came accross a Solonese kris with a solid suasa blade which looked original and old but unfortunately I did not buy it upon the recommendation from my wife. It was said to originate from one of the kratons but.... After the years I realize that the blade was may be made from gongso and not suasa. So kris blades from other metals than steel may well have been used but from gold? Best regards Jean

8th November 2012, 03:29 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,042	I believe i do recall reading stories about keris made of metals other than iron to be used against specific people who had magically protected themselves against harm from iron objects. I think these keris were supposedly bronze. But it is always difficult to separate truth from legend with such stories. I believe we may have discussed such keris in this forum before.

8th November 2012, 04:26 PM	#5
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,201	This is a quite good thread about metals used in keris different than iron: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002097.html

8th November 2012, 08:13 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,736	Bronze keris are known. I have seen a photographed a bronze Keris Buda; I've read somewhere --- I had thought Quaritch Wales but I cannot find it in that --- that in Hindu blood sacrifice, bronze was preferred to iron, so this bronze KB was possibly a weapon used for sacrifice. I also have a Modern Keris --- ie, current keris form --- in bronze. I've never seen a true keris in any metal other than these two.